How to talk to super-woke family?

[Ritascornershop]

My youngest has been away at college and has recently returned. He has an older sister who is gender critical: he is very left wing on all issues, imo doesn’t try to see other sides in issues, and takes things very personally. Like a lot of people his age.

I’ve found we disagree on politics only when it comes to issues affecting women. He believes the burka to be non-oppressive/ I disagree. He believed men got the short end when it came to custody (got that idea from his dad/my exh)/ I did get him to look at links that showed that in our country the default is 50-50 custody so he backed off on that. He believes that trans people have gender dysphoria, but also that they are terribly oppressed, at serious risk in the US of “being rounded up and murdered by the state”, should be allowed in women’s spaces etc.

I’d really rather not argue about it as my wonderful facts have never persuaded anyone of anything. So from now on I guess I’m just saying “hmmm”? I cannot stand confrontation. Can’t stand it. But of course a (young) man storming out of the room when I disagree with him (right now he’s stormed off for a walk) cannot help but feel oppressive. As if I’m not allowed to have a different opinion than him. To be fair, he’s probably like this if his dad offers a different opinion too - his abhorrence I’d different opinions is not restricted to women who disagree, but I do think he’s very unaware of how it comes across when disagreeing with a woman (his mum).

This is my kid and he has so many wonderful qualities!! And I figure in time he’ll mellow. But aside from annoying the fuck out of me, I worry he’ll be somewhat intolerable to other people with this “how dare you not be as woke as me!” attitude.

When I was his age, in the 80’s, I had relatives who were Thatcherites and I was flummoxed by their stupidity, but did zero flouncing out of rooms.

Anyone have words of wisdom for weathering this stage? It’s the only thing we ever disagree on!

Use language he’ll understand - tell him to check his privilege. As a last resort, tell him to stay in his lane.

Ooh, that makes sense. I have an urge to debate him on points, but he gets really wound up about it really quickly, so there’s no room to calmly dissect the whole thing. Deploying language he’d recognize makes sense.

I share this problem with the OP and so do some of my other friends who are parents of young adult children. The offspring have been brainwashed by the various woke, political and PC agendas and they voice their bigoted, unevidenced, echo chamber opinions with entitled rudeness. One friend’s child did not speak to his parents for six weeks because they voted the ‘wrong’ way in the Referendum.

After this same event my DD was so panicked and angry she was furious with us too - and the absurdity of this was proven by the fact that we voted differently! In the end she saw sense and agreed to avoid the subject.

However, I am extremely alarmed by the intolerance of the young. I think it comes from liberal parenting, the general level of intolerance of the left which has created a pattern which validates only one side of an argument and from the sowing of discord between young and old by the Resolution Foundation. Universities pushing a Woke agenda compound the problem.

You should address his behaviour of flouncing and anger over being disagreed with. It doesn't matter what the subject is, he needs the negative behaviour pointing out to him, and explaining it's intimidating to people and not a mature way to debate/discuss issues. Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't make them The Bady.

He needs to understand that it's not a game of good V evil, We don't live in a batman comic.

He needs teaching to read around stuff, look for different sources, look for facts, look at others arguements and view points.

Most of all he should know that his opinions are not definite and neither are anyone elses. There is nothing scary in hearing what others have to say.

I wonder if the son at college is learning anything useful - that will get him employment in future or just being indoctrinated by left wing dogma. I would say if you don’t like it go and earn some money to pay for yourself

Agree with PP. your job as parent is not to teach him to think like you, but to teach him to think and engage appropriately in society. The ‘storming out’ response is actually an aggressive and almost violent one and he needs to learn better self-control. He needs to manage his emotions in an adult way. This is a critical life lesson and in a calm moment you need to sit him down and discuss this with him and help him develop strategies to respond more maturely.

WTF is woke? Someone making up a new meaning for a word as they think they are just too cool for this world ?

My son was similar until the day we met a very fluttery and lovely young trans woman serving in a butchers shop. This gave me the opportunity to say that I wasn't against that person, but that there were issues I had concerns about. I had just found out about Yaniv so talked about that, and Karen White and I would also now talk about sports issues.

I think the wider point is he needs to be able to accept other people have different world views, and be open to changing his mind without feeling like he’s giving up something fundamental. Perhaps reassurance you think he’s intelligent too? And making the point that an important part of having an intelligent world view is being able to change your mind without feeling stupid?

It's enraging I know OP But I suspect it's part of the parent / nearly adult child dynamic. They do have to see us as 'out of touch' - it's how they grow away from us and develop their own identity in the world. I have learnt to be fairly light touch (as far as is possible) and to pick my battles. So my red lines - individual's rights to privacy and safety re undressing, hospital wards, smears, prostrate exams etc (I include men in this), no telling children they can change sex and pushing drugs at them, sport for adult human females and no misrepresenting the law.
What I have learnt is that if we talk occasionally and I share useful information it does help give them alternatives - so calling out the false suicide statistics, giving them the background data re murders etc. There are the odd wonderful moments when I hear something I have said coming out of their mouths.

I was like this straight out of uni. My parents and I disagree politically on most things and I was so militant and intolerant.

I grew out of it, and I think the more you are away from an echo chamber the more willing you are to hear things from a different POV. Just try to avoid the conversations for now.

Although, I do think you should say something about his impact and presence as a male when he is aggressively disagreeing - that's not on.

His behaviour is the problem, not his political views (which while problematic are his to hold). Have you considered discussing how he could behave that would allow you to feel comfortable? It’s possible to remove yourself from a discussion without “flouncing our”. Do you allow him the choice not to engage with you on this topic?

I worry he’ll be somewhat intolerable to other people with this “how dare you not be as woke as me!” attitude. there’s a reason most late teens/early twenties don’t have huge numbers of older friends . Lovely emerging little people but sometimes all that tunnel visioned passion is exhausting. He’s growing up. Give him a bit of time and space nobody is going to write him off. If he’s still at the same place at 30 there may be a problem.

SunshineCake, “woke” is a commonly used term at the moment.

In most ways he’s a very polite and respectful person. It’s just anything slightly political and tolerance and manners go out the window (to an extent - he’d never shout or name-call or anything.

I remember being exasperated with things my dad would say, and I would argue with him about it, but I think I was more accepting of the idea that people have different opinions and that doesn’t mean if their opinions are different they should be taken out and shot. The times he’s grown up in have been full of inflamed rhetoric.

I do agree he needs to learn that people can and will hold different opinions and we need to be able to deal with that calmly, respectfully, and even with a spirit of curiosity.

He’s very clever - so it’s frustrating to me that he’s so certain he’s right when he knows so little about the boundary pushers currently in the news.

I have had the word very recently. Still think it's stupid. Just because a word is being used "a lot" doesn't make it right. Somethink was being used and that sounds stupid too.

I’ve found it helps to start with the common ground.

So, personally, I believe that if a biological man has full sex reassignment surgery, hormones, presents as a woman, then I agree they should legally be treated as a woman now, ie allowed to use women’s changing rooms.

So I used that to establish the common ground, then started explaining that some people might pretend to be trans in order to get access to women....focus on prisons, women’s refuges etc where the danger is clear.

So start off with as much common ground as you can and go from there.

And yes, for sure it is a developmental phase - and I need to keep sight of that. His sister was sure I was an idiot when she was in her mid-teens. I seem to have gained in intelligence for every year she’s grown away from her teens. :D

He keeps bringing this stuff up - I think he partly hopes I’ve come around and partly he likes being outraged (though clearly finds it stressful or he wouldn’t keep leaving).

I suspect he sees a lot of things as a very slippery slope to ruination. I do love the passion of young people - at the same time I need to be allowed to have opinions (really quite sensible ones like afghani women may not support the Taliban and men are not women).

Overall we get on great, but there’s definitely an element of defining himself in opposition to his parent here.

I remember telling one teenage super-woke relative that actually I have no issue with people who are really trans, I have an issue with people who are pretending or confused, and that seemed to get through to them a bit

He flounces?! Ugh. I'm only 31 but I can't understand young people not standing their own ground. At his age I would argue my opinions until I was blue in the face.
Tell him that if he feels so strongly, to debate properly and stop storming off in a huff.

Flouncing announces to everyone that your arguments are weak.

I think anyone outside a female hijabi/burkha culture has an argument of equal strength. So say a black Caribbean of Christian background mother was having this debate with her son of the same demographic, I wouldn't see her argument as holding much more clout than his.

So for me, unless the 2 of you are Muslims, you should be largely presenting TED talks and Youtibe videos from people who are to "battle".

The subject matter of the argument is irrelevant
This isn’t a feminist issue. This is a parenting issue

it. But of course a (young) man storming out of the room when I disagree with him (right now he’s stormed off for a walk) cannot help but feel oppressive. As if I’m not allowed to have a different opinion than him

You need to see this as dealing with a shit way to argue and debate rather than what he’s arguing about

FWIW, I feel completely unqualified to speak about people who experience gender dysphoria and its validity.

Does he believe it is his 'human right' to have his genitals waxed by a woman?

Does he believe lesbians have to have PIV sex and if they don't they are oppressing and killing trans women?

If he answers 'no' to both these then he is GC.

You should address his behaviour of flouncing and anger over being disagreed with.

The ‘storming out’ response is actually an aggressive and almost violent one and he needs to learn better self-control.

Yes, "storming out" is a form of control used by emotionally abusive men.

Another parent of a super-woke teen here.

I think their sense of self and their own identity (which is largely built around being super-woke) is still new and fragile. They're like foals, or baby giraffes taking their first steps on spindly, shaky legs, and when we challenge the views they've absorbed from their online tribes and college peer groups, it knocks them badly off balance, which is threatening and upsetting. My dd has stood in front of me, arguing that if she encountered a person with a beard and a penis in a women's toilet, she wouldn't assume that person was a man. And then she burst into tears and rushed out of the room, because she realised how flimsy that woke argument was when held up to scrutiny.

I think it's enough that they're aware that you disagree. I have long since given up trying to argue, or make them see sense, or pick holes in their logic, and instead focus on providing a basis of unobtrusive and constant common sense. My dd knows my beliefs are not subject to fashion, but are based on fact. My feeling is that our teenagers are far out there, exploring the extremes of who they are and what they believe, but will gradually be pulled back to reality as they have less need for tribal identity and find the confidence to be themselves.