Old lady.... why is this still an acceptable insult

[FrameyMcFrame]

I've heard it so many times recently.

'You do x,y or z like an old lady'.

Because being compared to a old woman is pretty much like saying you're the lowest of the low, pathetic and deserving of ridicule?

I'm so angry when I hear this.

It's always men who say this.

I've spent a bit more time on twitter recently after a long break. I have noticed what seems to be a trend to write people off as "boomers". The context always seems to be "boomer" as an insult. I assume they're talking about baby-boomers.

If on the other hand, you read a description of someone that says they "drive like a grandmother" or something similar, is that pejorative? Maybe, maybe not, the context might tell us.

You are being spectacularly disingenuous to claim people use "drive like a grandmother" as anything other than an an insult.

That said, I think most stereotypes have the potential to be damaging. "Women are good at looking after kids" is a positive stereotype - but the result is still often damaging for women.

You seem very keen to defend gender stereotyping though.

There can be some useful info from stereotyping people, as that’s why it’s done. And it can be quite accurate!

“But sometimes descriptions like ‘old biddy’, ‘grumpy old man’ etc do set the scene. So it’s not always inappropriate to use these terms to explain a situation.”
When would it be appropriate?

Most of the time imo

Fair enough. You’re happy to be ageist.

The problem with stereotyping, in my opinion, is that you’re assigning attributes to someone, not on the basis of anything they’ve done or said, but because of the group they belong to. It stops you seeing the individual. And when those attributes are overwhelmingly negative, as is nearly always the case with old women, then that’s going to colour how you see them, how you expect them to behave and how you in turn behave towards them.

I can’t quite believe I’m on a feminist board saying this but here we are.

There can be some useful info from stereotyping people, as that’s why it’s done. And it can be quite accurate!

Lazy, often inaccurate, perpetuates inequalities and can be hurtful.

You seem very keen to defend gender stereotyping though.

I'm keen not to get caught up in identity politics, or have people believe that bad thinking is caused by using words and can be eliminated by removing the word, and I am especially keen to avoid the idea that if people don't describe things we can somehow avoid their reality. And I'd like to retain the possibility of rich literary descriptions.

The problem with stereotyping, in my opinion, is that you’re assigning attributes to someone, not on the basis of anything they’ve done or said, but because of the group they belong to. It stops you seeing the individual. And when those attributes are overwhelmingly negative, as is nearly always the case with old women, then that’s going to colour how you see them, how you expect them to behave and how you in turn behave towards them.*

Generalisations can be applied in an inappropriate way, one that is inaccurate or unkind, but they don't have to be. All kinds of groups have characteristics we can see, it's not more morally correct to pretend we don't. Older people are often frail in a particular way. People from a particular culture have a unique type of humour. Another group tends to be forthright and aggressive in their language.

If we assume that someone has these qualities simply because they are a member of a particular group, there is a good chance you'll be wrong. You can't make that assumption any more than you can with any other statistical probability and an individual.

But it's not necessarily the observations about groups themselves that are wrong. We can't help making them, in any case, it's part of pattern recognition and it's how we acquire knowledge.

My mother used to use very descriptive phrases about coloured people, which were totally acceptable in her day. Today they would be considered beyond shocking. No-one is sad about losing these , even though they were a form of "shorthand" .Today people are more circumspect and consider the messages which are sent by their words

Why are old people not allowed to protest about throwaway terms like "old biddy", "old dear" etc? There is an enormous amount of ageism on Mumsnet and it shouldn't be dismissed lightly. I find it hurtful and demeaning and I don't like being categorised because of my age. It's not my most important attribute!

Absolutely. And I will give a tenner to Age Concern if anyone can come up with an example of where “old” was used in the description of a person in an entirely neutral (doesn’t even have to be positive) way as a descriptor.

Why are old people not allowed to protest about throwaway terms like "old biddy", "old dear" etc?

They (maybe it's 'we' now, for me) are allowed to protest about it. Insults based on stereotypes aren't 'acceptable'.

What exactly is enriching or literary about using ‘old lady’ as shorthand for:
Ugly
Narrow minded
Reactionary
Set in their ways
Old fashioned
Nosey
Smelling of wee

All of which I have seen on Mumsnet.

I do report posts that contain ageist slurs: "old biddy, old bag", etc and most have been addressed by MNHQ. Of course, it was necessary to mention that they had a reference in one of their publications to "old biddies on the bus." They did acknowledge that was inappropriate, and said it would not be repeated.

Ageist language is a very serious matter, even without outright slurs. Marginalization of older people creates and supports conditions and attitudes that foster elder abuse. Ageist attitudes and society's tolerance of them contribute to elder abuse, just as devaluation of women underpins violence against women. One of the reasons that language is so important is that words that devalue elders, especially women, reinforce the notion that they are "other" and lesser. These notions play heavily in elder abuse scenarios

Hmmmm, although I agree that ageist slurs are unwelcome, I do think that actual ageism does have a place (and I am by no means young!).

Should medical operations be age blind, even if the patient has dementia? Should companies be obliged to retain workers in their 80s? In the US, where in some states this is law, this has led to litigation on both sides regarding bus drivers. Should higher education student loans be available to someone aged 75? Should someone be able to start medical school at that age?

What exactly is enriching or literary about using ‘old lady’ as shorthand for:

But are those the only kinds of instances people make those kinds of comparative observations or descriptions?

If I write a description of a person walking doesn't the hall in a hospital gown, and say that they are hobbling or bent like an elderly person, with a small of stale wee - is that an ageist description? I would say it's somewhat unpleasant, but that's kind of the point. We know old age can look that way, that it can be unpleasant.

“But are those the only kinds of instances people make those kinds of comparative observations or descriptions?”
My offer of a tenner to Age Conxern if you can find an example on Mumsnet of “old” being anything but a negative descriptor still stands. Posters know that if they say an old woman, or an old biddy did something they will automatically get unquestioning support. Particularly if it happens on a bus.

Goosefoot I'm an old lady and I am happy to refer to myself as such.

Thanks for your thoughtful posts, I can see your point of view. Personally, I would like to retain the right to be ageist about my contemporaries, and not have my vocabulary policed by our joyless thought police.

BTW I've noticed Mumsnetters will insult all and sundry, so references to old people doesn't particularly make me sob into my cocoa.

Life lesson...shrug and move on.

If I write a description of a person walking doesn't the hall in a hospital gown, and say that they are hobbling or bent like an elderly person, with a small of stale wee - is that an ageist description?

Yes it is. "Like and elderly person" adds nothing to the description of describing a person "hobbling" or "bent over"

"Smells of stale wee" is pure ageism.

do think that actualageismdoes have a place (and I am by no means young!)

Should medical operations be age blind, even if the patient has dementia? Should companies be obliged to retain workers in their 80s? In the US, where in some states this is law, this has led to litigation on both sides regarding bus drivers. Should higher education student loans be available to someone aged 75? Should someone be able to start medical school at that age?

You are confusing valid discrimination based on physical attributes and ability with the application of unthinking blanket stereotypes.

Quite.

There are many valid reasons why someone cannot become a bus driver - eyesight, physical ability, mental capacity. Some of these factors may be impaired with age in some people to greater or lesser extents. You may be able to say that statistically more 30 year olds would be able to drive a bus than 70 year olds - but you can't deduce from that whether a specific 30 year old or 70 year old is competent.

Protest is not policing.
Of course people have the right to be rude and use lazy cliches if it brings them joy (and assuming they’re within board guidelines).
And other people have the right to object and ask why they do it.