Old lady.... why is this still an acceptable insult

[FrameyMcFrame]

I've heard it so many times recently.

'You do x,y or z like an old lady'.

Because being compared to a old woman is pretty much like saying you're the lowest of the low, pathetic and deserving of ridicule?

I'm so angry when I hear this.

It's always men who say this.

I think it's pretty unpleasant to try and justify discriminatory language as poetic or stereotypes as accurate. Words matter.

I have a colleague who likes to describe our fellow, gay, colleague as "mincing around the office". I'm sure he'd say he was creating an evocative image or just being accurate, but y'know he's actually wildly homophobic and his easy embrace of stereotypes is part of that.

I think it's pretty unpleasant to try and justify discriminatory language as poetic or stereotypes as accurate. Words matter

Yes they do.

I think it's pretty unpleasant to try and justify discriminatory language as poetic or stereotypes as accurate.

I think that's begging the question.

As far as I'm concerned, the problem isn't using it as a descriptor if it's correct, although I do wonder sometimes what the relevance is

When would it be relevant to use the descriptor "old lady" other than as a witness to a crime scene?

I think that's begging the question.

Is your point that something isn't a stereotype if it's accurate?

I disagree. Most stereotypes are accurate for a certain number of the class. That doesn't mean applying that generalisation to every member of the class is acceptable. Particularly when the stereotype is based on or is used to justify discriminatory views.

No, my point is that stereotypes, or generalisations, aren't necessarily a problem or offensive.

Everyone knows that not all old ladies fit the stereotype, little old dear with a structured handbag and blue hair, driving very carefully. No one thinks all old ladies are like that. No one even thinks they are all ladies, some are not lady-like at all. Your complaint that people are generalising these characteristics to all older women just doesn't stand up, so its not really a basis to complain about the image being used.

There is enough truth to it that we can recognise it as an image when it's useful. No one uses that image to talk about, say, Tina Turner, or Camille Paglia, who are both getting up there, and are well known. They might have used it at one time for the Queen Mother but they probably still knew there was a lot more to her than that.

None of it is what causes young women to be dismissive of older ones, or rude about it.

No of course not all stereotypes are offensive, but many are. And if you're
using age and gender in a pejorative sense I think it's worth reflecting on what that reveals about your own biases.

Do you use "gay" as an insult? Do you think generalisations based on race are also acceptable?

We're an older lesbian couple — pretty radical and alternative and certainly nothing like their grandmothers

Did you know their actual, real life grandmothers or are you yourself applying a stereotype to what you think their grandmothers were like?

Young TRAs use boomer as an insult.

That is by no means restricted to trans privilege activists, and using 'millennial' as an insult is equally prevalent.

As a Generation Xer I sometimes feel like I'm stuck between two warring factions who, incidentally, are both happy to lump me in with their 'opposition' when it so suits.

I met one of their grandmothers at a family event and was aware of the other surviving one too. They were at least 20 years older than us. We are so unalike that the grandmother we met declined to meet us on a second occasion. Actually, forget grandmothers, we met their mothers on several occasions and were nothing like either of them.

No of course not all stereotypes are offensive, but many are. And if you're using age and gender in a pejorative sense I think it's worth reflecting on what that reveals about your own biases.

But these examples are not all pejorative, that's my point. In some instances they aren't at all, but in others the problem is not the image it's that people are attaching a pejorative meaning to an image that ought to be neutral. In cases like that telling people that the image is offensive doesn't address the real issue or make it better. I'm inclined to think it makes it worse in the end.

The left in general has a real problem at the moment with attempts at controlling speech, and its often done with a sense of good intention, just this kind of thing, people feel its reducing bigotry. But it's having very detrimental effects on all kinds of fronts, and empirically it's utterly failed at reducing bigotry, which seems to be getting worse.

There is a real error about how language works in relation to the ideas we are expressing at work in this, and I think those who have been involved in leftist politics need to be very suspicious of our own natural reactions and assumptions, which have developed under this kind of thinking without it really being questioned much.

I don't think anyone is seeking to control speech. Rather I think posters are thinking about how the use of language reveals society's underlying prejudices.

I agree, telling people they can't use "old lady" isn't always a particularly helpful way of tackling those underlying prejudices (although actually I think many people benefit from considering their unconscious bias), but I do think if we lived in a less misogynistic and ageist society a lot of the "poetic" or "just accurate" use of language you are defending would fall away.

Language is a symptom not the root problem I suppose. But that doesn't mean that words don't have an impact in perpetuating prejudice, and I think blithely ignoring your own use of language because hey you're just being poetic is unhelpful.

I don't think we should ignore anything, I just think we really need to be careful not to assume that the use of certain words is really a problem.

The title of the thread is actually enlightening I think, "Why are insults like..."

Well, anything that someone uses as an insult is going to have an insulting quality, that's kind of the point. It's like little kids, they will pick out any quality that seems different if they want to insult someone, and it then becomes an insult. In another context the same thing might be seen as a compliment.

If being called old is seen as insulting, maybe we need to examine our attitude toward our elders?

Yes, we do need to examine our attitude towards age that's exactly the point.

I find it profoundly irritating when people are insulting and then claim, with breathless naïveté "oh gosh I didn't mean fat/ugly/old in a negative way".

If you're associating age and gender with negative characteristics, such as bad driving, then you need to consider the prejudices you're revealing.

Sure maybe kids "pick out any quality that seems different if they want to insult someone" but if that quality was race or sexual orientation you'd correct them PDQ. Why not with age or gender?

I gave been told 'you sound young' on this board when someone didn't agree with my views. I'm not young, if that is relevant, but it does show ageism cuts both ways.

If being called old is seen as insulting, maybe we need to examine our attitude toward our elders?

I think that is exactly the point that many of us are making on this thread. Ageist slurs are obvious; "old bag," etc. But there are other ways that language reinforces negative stereotypes; one is referencing an older person's age in a negative context when it is entirely irrelevant to the discussion. And of course, using age and sex in combination as a negative comparison, as in "he drives like an old lady" delivers the double whammy of sexism and ageism.

Unfortunately "old" is a pejorative word. Just as "new" isn't: we mostly like "new" things, from new babies, to new shoes, a new job, to new potatoes - they all mean something fresh and exciting.

Who wants to be old? I don't. And I am a fair way down the road. So it's probably someone like me being the most pejorative as I try on some shoes and think, "Gosh, no they're totally granny-ish," or if I'm enjoying Escape to the Country and exclaim, "Eeek! I'm already a pensioner!"

yeah, arguing with some tras/young 'feminists' on fb, they were v happy to call germaine greer - grumpy old woman, crone etc. disagree with her views?, fine, insult her using misogynist tropes? meh.

I must admit I did hoik my drooping bosom to its pre-aged height when a young woke person of my acquaintance was joking about seeing sad old menopausal women dancing at a concert. I said I found it hurtful and offensive that she should be judging a group of people like that. She was a bit taken aback.

"Dad dancing" too - how frequently that is used?

But why shouldn't middle aged and upwards men dance (badly or otherwise) if they enjoy it?

Another one today.

Someone calledBoris Johnston 'Doris' and thought it was so hilarious.

Why? Because likening someone to an old lady is the worst insult, because old ladies are deserving of ridicule by society?

NO

This is just thought of as normal AND hilarious. It was also a bearded woke dude type saying it (typically)

I'm just sonow

Mumsnet is awful for casual ageism- old woman, old biddy, grumpy old man-used all the time. And if posters are challenged, they say it’s just a descriptive word, they are just “setting the scene”

But sometimes descriptions like ‘old biddy’, ‘grumpy old man’ etc do set the scene. So it’s not always inappropriate to use these terms to explain a situation.

Yes, we do need to examine our attitude towards age that's exactly the point. I find it profoundly irritating when people are insulting and then claim, with breathless naïveté "oh gosh I didn't mean fat/ugly/old in a negative way". If you're associating age and gender with negative characteristics, such as bad driving, then you need to consider the prejudices you're revealing.

But you aren't just examining it, you are saying that just by making the comparison or observation, by noticing, it's negative and a problem, always. Your assumption is that the comment is the origin of the problem and somehow the attitude will change if people don't say such things.

Sure maybe kids "pick out any quality that seems different if they want to insult someone" but if that quality was race or sexual orientation you'd correct them PDQ. Why not with age or gender?

Yes, the problem here is the kids are using these things as a slur, be it race or age or something else. It's unkind, and also often rude in other ways, when kids do this to each other, and they shouldn't. They should be corrected for all of them. But it's not that race, or the age, or round head shapes, that are offensive. It's the context.

If on the other hand, you read a description of someone that says they "drive like a grandmother" or something similar, is that pejorative? Maybe, maybe not, the context might tell us. We know what it means though, someone who seems to drive carefully, excessively so, it's very evocative. It's fairly common among very elderly people because their reaction times are slowed down, maybe their vision is not as good, they become very cautious about driving, or even walking sometimes.

It's an observable human phenomena we have all seen, and a situation we might all find ourselves in eventually. If it's being said about a young person, perhaps the implication is that they don't need to be so careful, they are being a worry wart. But it doesn't say anything about whether it's stupid for elderly people to be careful about their driving.