Are feminists getting played?

[Maniak]

It makes me sad that feminists are spending so much time banging on about bathrooms in a world that has women still working for no pay, old women still more likely to be poor, surrogacy, underfunded maternity care, and poor support for carers. And other stuff.

Yes, the trans thing is annoying, but have you noticed how it always fires up before major elections? It's like Afghanistan in the 80s when the US provided just enough weapons to keep the war going so Russia would use all it's energy and get weak.

I feel like feminism is getting distracted with the trans stuff. At most, it should take up 10 percent of our feminist attention. But I rarely see feminism these days that isn't all about trans. Seriously. Do you think we're getting played here? Is trans really such a big deal?

Suppose trans advocates get the upper hand. What happens? Again, almost nothing to men.

Correct, almost nothing.

Except places woman's places on AWS, womens awards, access to shelters, wards, prisons, sports podiums, ability to re-write women's history, women's health allowance, our words, experience, places.

So yeah, almost nothing because only a few men will colonise the above. Small numbers in the scheme of things.

@squeekywheel "Let me illustrate my point- maternity care is shit. Particularly post-natally."

Agreed. Another issue I have is mothers being able to represent us politically. So many of them quit because it's too difficult, especially when their children are young. That's a basic democratic issue! But people just accept it as normal. Imagine if we had mothers in government proportional to mothers in the population, maybe then we'd get some more reasonable support.

Because, although this board make give that impression, it's actually drawing hundreds more women towards feminism in general.

I just don't think that's true. MN is virtually the only space on the internet where GC discussion is permitted. It attracts very specific people and that gives a totally misleading impression of how most women and most feminists feel.

I agree with OP that the momentum of the MeToo movement seems to have been lost in the UK and I think that's a real opportunity we've ceded.

If we live in a patriarchy and men can legally be women, women are fucked.

Not immediately. But eventually.

Patriarchy won't stop it. Patriarchy is responsible for it.

And political representation is just about the most important part.

It won't matter a fuck if women have the vote, if there are no women in power to vote for.

I just don't think that's true. MN is virtually the only space on the internet where GC discussion is permitted. It attracts very specific people and that gives a totally misleading impression of how most women and most feminists feel

It's the only place on the Internet where public gender critical discussion is permitted.

In the last couple of years I have seen dozens and dozens of groups spring up, elsewhere. Covertly. With thousands of members.

The issue is absolutely not confined to mumsnet. This is the only public place.

I just don't think that's true.

Based on what? Your feels?

Have you read the latest 'lurkers' thread.

Have you read the latest 'lurkers' thread.

I know. Bless those lurkers. And that's what, the third thread in a year just like that?

They just keep on coming.

I know this will tilt your wheels, but things actually happen off the internet.

And no, MN is not the only place you can discuss this. You face difficulties discussing it in other places online, but I am seeing more and more conversations popping up on Facebook and grassroots campaigning that was springboarded here is having an impact now that wouldn't have been possible a couple of years ago, and that is due to the persistence and determination of a lot of women, some of whom post here, some of whom do not for various reasons.

How many times does it have to be said that many the women here (Not including Lass, who clearly popped into existence as righteously motivated against certain thing and has never needed to be shown enlightenment) have come here curious about the eye catching current topic, and gone on the engage with women's rights more broadly.

Self ID is not the only topic here. It's current, so you could expect to see many threads as more and more women begin to become aware, but that is not the same thing.

Anyway, this thread looks like it might start going in circles soon, so I might depart from another round of

"FWR only talks about trans. Why dont you talk about X, Y and Z?"

"We do."

"Nah, you don't. You just talk about trans. It's not that important. Talk about F, G, and H."

"We do."

*repeat to fade.

@wacademia. I never thought of those things. Those are good points. But still the IDEA of equality makes sense in relation to them. For example, women should be able to access appropriately designed seatbelts and other safety equipment equally to men. Even if that equality hasn't been achieved yet. Women and men should be treated with equal respect in conversations at work and so on.

My point was that when it comes to pregnancy and childbirth, equality is not achievable. The burdens of reproduction are not equal and can't be. But yeah, I take your point that there are more issues to consider and I was being simplistic.

I've often read on here that to achieve equality things must necessarily get worse for some men as they currently have privilege which they may have to sacrifice. Some would argue that's the situation we're looking at here.

Feminism is sadly no longer the saveur du jour, and many of the woke purple haired sjw types have now seemingly jumped onto the transwagon as it's new and exciting and offers much more opportunity for language policing etc (the feminist campaign to ban the word 'bossy' never met the same success as the trans alternative which is literally getting people arrested and fired for using the wrong words).

"FWR only talks about trans. Why dont you talk about X, Y and Z?"

"We do."

"Nah, you don't. You just talk about trans. It's not that important. Talk about F, G, and H."

"We do."

*repeat to fade.

And always left with the feeling that it's less about why don't you talk of this and this, and more why don't you stop talking about that.

I know this will tilt your wheels, but things actually happen off the internet.

Wow you don't say.

Yes of course they do. But if you're going to use the MN feminist board as an example of how women feel about an issue it's important to recognise that it's totally unrepresentative of women or even feminists as a whole.

For every GC lurkers thread there are plenty of threads from MN users who feel the site is totally dominated by the trans issue and are consequently discouraged from engaging with feminist discussion.

discouraged from engaging with feminist discussion.

And yet, here you are

@Datun "None of us will report it, but if this is being watched, and someone else does, that it will be gone. It's up to the moderators at HQ as to whether or not it constitutes a strike. It may not, but if you did it again, it would. Three of those and you will be banned."

I believe you. I saw how Lindsay Shepherd got banned on Twitter.

Yes of course they do. But if you're going to use the MN feminist board as an example of how women feel about an issue it's important to recognise that it's totally unrepresentative of women or even feminists as a whole.

Eh? The website is called mumsnet. It's absolutely representative of women. And this is the feminist board.

For feminists.

On a website that represents women.

In public.

Free.

It's just about the most representative you can get.

For every GC lurkers thread there are plenty of threads from MN users who feel the site is totally dominated by the trans issue and are consequently discouraged from engaging with feminist discussion.

Anyone can start a thread. Anyone. And people do. Loads. About surrogacy, rape culture, abortion, misogyny. All the time.

And you won't stop women talking about the trans issue, by the way.

I believe you. I saw how Lindsay Shepherd got banned on Twitter.

She's back!

And the reason is because women have been all over the Yaniv case. Highlighting it, publishing it, drawing attention to it, Reporting on it from the actual hearing.

And the Twitter bosses can see the optics for themselves. So they have been forced to reinstate Lindsey Shepherd.

They won't want to, she is trouble for them. They've been forced.

Because women.

Meghan Murphy next.

I don't think that it is the biggest threat- the biggest threats are the persistent public perceptions that women are primarily sex objects or mothers- everything else is secondary.

I think this is major, yes. I also think we've reached the point where men's power is so complete that they are literally, and totally on purpose, driving the world toward nuclear extinction

As a male feminist I often find the trans discussions a bit offputting tbh (and before somebody tells me I can't be a feminist as I man, I'd point out that I'm going by the original definition - changing it to fit one's agenda is pretty much akin to what the trans lobby are doing with the word 'woman').

@GirlDownUnder

I'm sorry this thread has come across criticising people for talking about trans because that was not the intention at all. Also, it would be totally hypocritical for me to say that, since I've been avidly following the trans debate for years now. I mean, it really is gripping, entertaining, shocking, all the things. I just wanted to raise an issue that I've been thinking about for a while, and other people clearly have too. That we're being played. It's just an idea to consider, that is all.

It's just about the most representative you can get.

That's totally laughable.

The feminist board has become an echo chamber dedicated to GC discussion. I have no interest in stopping other women discussing trans issues, here or anywhere else they wish. But pretending that this fixation doesn't have some negative consequences is naive.

Oh, Rudolph, you're a man? I didn't realise. I shall give your opinion the appropriate weight from now on.

That's totally laughable.

Terrible logic there.

It's the biggest parenting forum in the world. It's got the highest number of women on it, in the world. It's got the most active feminist board, in the world.

Show me somewhere else that's more representative?

Floral,

No need to do that. I'm against the idea that mens voices should be prioritised over women's.

I don't understand how you think this could be an echo chamber, either.

It's an open, public forum. There is no blocking, muting.

The pro transactivists on Twitter subscribe to terf blocker. Blocking, quite literally, hundreds of thousands of dissenting opinions.

The number of women on here who go to look at a timeline on Twitter, only to find they have been blocked, without ever having engaged with the person.

It honestly doesn't get more echoey than that.

A public forum, open to anyone, as long as you remain within guidelines. Dedicated women, run by women. I don't understand how it could be more representative of women.

It's an open, public forum. There is no blocking, muting

That's down to MNHQ. It doesn't stop certain posters issuing diktats about who they think should and should not be posting or acting as if it were a private radical feminist forum set up by and for radical feminists.