Are feminists getting played?

[Maniak]

It makes me sad that feminists are spending so much time banging on about bathrooms in a world that has women still working for no pay, old women still more likely to be poor, surrogacy, underfunded maternity care, and poor support for carers. And other stuff.

Yes, the trans thing is annoying, but have you noticed how it always fires up before major elections? It's like Afghanistan in the 80s when the US provided just enough weapons to keep the war going so Russia would use all it's energy and get weak.

I feel like feminism is getting distracted with the trans stuff. At most, it should take up 10 percent of our feminist attention. But I rarely see feminism these days that isn't all about trans. Seriously. Do you think we're getting played here? Is trans really such a big deal?

Genderism sort of covers the 'how' of the oppression rather than just the fact of it. Which, for me, cuts out a stage of conversation,

Very insightful. And, may I say, wonderfully expedient.

Women are just so efficient.

Gender neutral toilets are a nonsense- think we can all agree on that.

Let me illustrate my point- maternity care is shit. Particularly post-natally.

That's an undeniably feminist issue. How many threads are there about it on the feminism board?

Don't get me wrong, I hate all that language, but it is just words.

It is not just words. Women’s ability to name themselves as women and to define their existence is crucial to our liberation.

If women becomes a category which includes men, then there is no way of understanding the basis of human female oppression.

Words like “womb-bearers” subsume human females into the general category of mammals, again, ignoring our human female biology.

And beyond the importance of defining ourselves is the act of mastery which is allowing a small group of men to redefine women.

In the New Testament it is the naming of things which gives Adam dominion over the earth. It is no accident that colonisers remame the landscape in their own image.

There are many important battles women have to fight, but it’s hard to fight them when we can’t talk about who we are or describe our biology.

I am not very knowledgeable at all about this, but I thought that the fact that there were no public toilets at all for women 100 or so years ago meant that women were severely restricted socially. Unable to leave the home unless visiting another home, unable to stay out longer than their bladder would allow. (For me that would be a couple of hours).
When you think about that for a few minutes it is obvious how big an effect that simple lack of women only provision would have had. We cannot and should not go back to that.
So toilets are very important. Fundamentally important.
I have posted before about my family member building segregated toilet and washing facilities in refugee camps. This is the one thing women ask for, above food and clothes. Because of the level of rape and assault.

This is one of the few spaces where women feel we can talk about this issue. Forgive me but I am wondering why so many people are dropping in all of a sudden to tell us we shouldn't.

Nobody is telling you what to talk about. However all the feminist energy in this country is currently directed at one thing. Just one.

It's like Brexit - everyone is obsessed with that so austerity is ignored.

Everyone is obsessed with trans so shite healthcare, still being judged on our looks, threats to abortive and contraceptive access and God knows what else is ignored.

Nobody is telling you what to talk about.
Really? OK.
Why not start a thread about the things you care about?

the biggest threat gets the most threads because the threat is constantly changing. there are new examples of how it is being used almost every day.
There are threads on other subjects such as BDSM violence going mainstream, safeguarding being abolished within the NSPCC, maternal healthcare, they run to multiple pages. Just use the Advanced Search feature to look.

But if you don't get that erasing the word 'woman' erases all of our sex based rights on one fell swoop, you haven't been paying attention.

Why? The thread is here!

I'm talking about what I want to talk about. Here. The subject raised in the OP.

I don't think that it is the biggest threat- the biggest threats are the persistent public perceptions that women are primarily sex objects or mothers- everything else is secondary.

That perception is still there and underlies so much more than a willy in the next cubicle.

You are so right OP. Yes I agree that “step outside and I’ll show you sir” shouldn’t be in our spaces but there are so many other issues affecting women daily and more structurally engrained in society than this.

Self ID is not law yet, but its already had a negative effect on other women - not you obviously, but more vulnerable women in places you don't have to think about such as psychiatric units, prisons, and DV shelters.
I can't imagine telling women on a feminist forum to shut up talking about harm that is being done to women.

You are so right OP. Yes I agree that “step outside and I’ll show you sir” shouldn’t be in our spaces but there are so many other issues affecting women daily and more structurally engrained in society than this.

If the trans agenda progresses further, it won’t just be a question of sexism and misogyny being engrained in society. Instead regressive gender stereotypes will literally be enshrined in law. What does “living as a woman” even mean? It’s mind-boggling that we should have laws that overwrite the material reality of womanhood with the performance of it (in some cases, for sexual gratification).

there are so many other issues affecting women daily and more structurally ingrained in society than this.

Then off you pop and go and get to work on those other issues.

Personally, I'll carry on working on this issue until all children and women have full protection from sex self-ID and its appalling implications.

Let me illustrate my point- maternity care is shit. Particularly post-natally.

That's an undeniably feminist issue. How many threads are there about it on the feminism board?

There is nothing to stop you starting a thread about this for yourself.

I'm not sure people understand quite how many women are coming into feminism on the back of all this.

Misogyny, postnatal healthcare, a world designed for men, the objectification of women, porn, prostitution, all of it is now being assessed by women on the back of the trans issue.

I have signed petitions or given money over free speech, the police handling of women, women being fired, all women shortlists.

I've had my eyes opened about the realities of prostitution, pornography, abortion denial, and generally how we are living under the heel of a patriarchy.

If you are a lifelong feminist, coming into this, it might seem one-sided.

If you're not, and most of the women who are arriving aren't, then feminism is now being accessed by thousands more women. The entry is trans. But the education and enlightenment is going far further.

You obviously haven't listened to the, quite literally, thousands of women who say they now see the world through totally different eyes.

That's because of the trans issue - it's a microcosm that reflects the wider world. And more and more women are showing up to take a look.

And what we're saying is "it's a fucking dragon, just pick a bit and start fighting!

Yes. 🐉

I'm not sure people understand quite how many women are coming into feminism on the back of all this.

Misogyny, postnatal healthcare, a world designed for men, the objectification of women, porn, prostitution, all of it is now being assessed by women on the back of the trans issue.

I am one.

This forum had changed how I think, see, and interact with the world. A paradigm shift. And I am now active in the ways I can be, in more areas.

And Datun thank you for that post, it articulates so much for me

You're welcome GirlDownUnder. It's quite true. And I could give loads of examples.

Furthermore, although there are lots of public meetings, now (WPUK, fair play for women, Posie and Venice, etc) about the trans ideology, many of those meetings are about other feminist issues.

The women talk about male violence, the freedom program, provision for women in the workplace, women's sport, prisons, prostitution.

Revered and experienced feminists stand up and talk about issues close to their heart.

And these meetings are absolutely rammed. Local pubs can't keep up with the stream of bolshy, outraged women who congregate there afterwards. Talking, laughing and motivating each other.

I've had my eyes opened about the realities of prostitution, pornography, abortion denial

I find it extraordinary that anyone could have been unaware of these problems until trans issues opened their eyes. These are issues I have felt strongly about, have signed petitions about, have discussed, have tried to alter other people's opinion about for the last 30 years.

This is simply my personal experience but there seem to be vastly more problematic trans people on the internet than in real life.

I live in a medium sized city, I go on holiday mainly on European city breaks and am in London maybe once a month. I haven't once come across a trans woman in a women's toilet. Maybe there was and I simply didn't notice.

I read what is written on here and think where do posters live that they seem to come across so many trans people? I sit on crowded tube trains and there's not a single obvious trans person. I sit in crowded concert halls, ditto. I feel embarrassed and a bit mad even looking for obvious trans people, but such is the effect of MN. I'm not seeing something which according to MN is commonplace.

I agree with Datun. I came here on mumsnet through AIBU, then onto FWR and learned about the self id proposals. Then learned about class and what feminism actually can be. And that was it. I now also fight against commercial surrogacy, against sex work and have started donating to womens refuge organisations again.

Lass, I guess people arrive at this on different trains. Or, perhaps in your case, on only some of it.

My point was that it's a mistake to think the trans issue is dominating feminism. Because, although this board make give that impression, it's actually drawing hundreds more women towards feminism in general.

Lass I've never really liked porn and I don't use porn now. But I did when younger use porn with boyfriends because I was a 'cool girlfriend'. I saw some feminist issue in more blatant ways like inequality, and sexism, and discrimination.
But porn, meh.

I only peripherally know some trans people. They don't, in and of themselves, impact on my life.

But I very clearly, and very quickly saw the danger in TRA policy.
How that would just underscore and imbed everything I understood about inequality, and sexism, and discrimination. It was an easy lesson.

Now I've spent time here, porn, prostitution, general female healthcare, pre and ante natal care, access to services, funds, etc. I now see from a more feminist point of view, and the damage it causes women, as a whole. Because what this board has also reminded of emphatically is it's not all about childless 'me' in my safe, white, middle class, first world, comfort.

@Justhadathought "Smarter than what? I'm confused."

Smarter than letting our opponents direct the focus of our movement.

Like, think of it from the male perspective. If gender critical feminists get the upper hand on the trans debate, what happens to men? Nothing. It's exactly as it's always been. Suppose trans advocates get the upper hand. What happens? Again, almost nothing to men. So as long as the debate continues, they are free to do whatever they want.

In comparison, something like metoo really made men uncomfortable for a moment, I thought. It took the debate somewhere they had skin in the game, so to speak. Not that men are the enemy. But every day that the trans debate consumes all the energies of feminists is a good day for the patriarchy. Maybe we can't avoid it. A lot of people on this thread seem to think we can't.

@OldCrone "The idea to redefine "woman" came from men."

Maybe? What about Judith Butler and Gender Trouble? The idea of gender as performance. I've never read it though.