Are feminists getting played?

[Maniak]

It makes me sad that feminists are spending so much time banging on about bathrooms in a world that has women still working for no pay, old women still more likely to be poor, surrogacy, underfunded maternity care, and poor support for carers. And other stuff.

Yes, the trans thing is annoying, but have you noticed how it always fires up before major elections? It's like Afghanistan in the 80s when the US provided just enough weapons to keep the war going so Russia would use all it's energy and get weak.

I feel like feminism is getting distracted with the trans stuff. At most, it should take up 10 percent of our feminist attention. But I rarely see feminism these days that isn't all about trans. Seriously. Do you think we're getting played here? Is trans really such a big deal?

@jackyholyoake

Yes public toilets for women are essential and I'm very grateful to our grandmother's for getting them for us. Also, it is INFURIATING to have woman redefined for us by a bunch of woke dudes or whoever is doing it. I fully agree. And I hate unisex toilets they are gross.

However, have you personally felt your ability to access a public toilet has been infringed? Because I have not. There are still toilets pretty much everywhere. We can still use them. By all means, let's argue about them. I'm just saying it shouldn't be our main focus. It's NOT our main focus, in fact. It never had been. We're getting played on bathrooms for sure.

Yes but for reasons of gender perhaps rather than reasons of sex?

I can't think of a category that would be better divided by gender than it is by sex. Obviously this is the crux of the sports argument, but look at the other things as well:

Crime, including sexual assualt - TW have offending patterns the same as men, not the same as women (even worse if you count every prisoner in the UK who claims to be a woman as TW). Therefore, for crime it is sensible to differentiate by sex, not by gender.

Women have grown up as little girls and then teenage girls and have had their bodies treated as public property, a vast number have been groped, assaulted etc. There is a reason they need privacy from the male gaze and it isn't their inner identity. Growing up male is a different experience (not lesser, but different). The reason for single sex changing areas has not gone away, there isn't such a good reason for single gender (and how many genders are there anyway)?

All women shortlists are based on the premise that women are under represented. It is also to encourage role models, so more girls grow up with role models and feel such a job is possible for them. Do these things apply to a TW? Not really. If TW are underrepresented, then they need a different list and to take space from the men, not the already underrepresented women. If TM were taking things from men at the same rate, there might be an argument to differentiate by gender, but so far - no evidence, no reason.

Can you name me one category where the sensible, significant differences are by gender, not sex? I honestly can think of VAT on make up (and that is a stretch and a non issue) and female hairdressers charging more than barbers.

Indeed. It is the expression by men of their sense of entitlement to disregard a very basic boundary against our consent.

Yes exactly. I personally think that consent is one of the most important feminist issues.

We're getting played on bathrooms for sure.

See my post immediately above yours, Maniak.

I don't see it like that OP. The way I see it, is the trans issue is so horrendous that it has woken thousands of women up about how many people in power (unfortunately of both sexes) feel utter contempt for us and how our sex based rights are considered fair game to throw away. It seems to have fuelled a fantastic new wave of actual/radical feminism.

For years feminism got infiltrated, diverted and diluted with toxic 'liberal feminism' which centred men so the voices of the actual/radical feminists got drowned out. Hopefully those days are over.

The notion that society can be meaningfully, purposefully and realistically constructed on the basis of who performs current cultural standards of femininity or masculinity that are created and imposed by patriarchy is laughably ludicrous.

It bears no relation to the reality of people's lives as natural biological beings.

Dearie me! What nonsense is transgenderist ideology!

"It is the expression by men of their sense of entitlement to disregard a very basic boundary against our consent."

I know and I agree. But there is also surrogacy and a capitalist system that is structured so that the bulk of women's work is entirely unpaid and people aren't even arguing. Those are worse violations and so that's where our attention should be. And those are just two examples that come to mind.

1. To try and get out of these endless argument about what a woman is and isn't.

There is no 'endless argument'. We all know what a woman is. Some men are trying to redefine woman. Why should we let them do that?

2. To shore up rights where it matters. Like, concede women's rights bit keep reproductive rights. As an example. Given that reproduction is real, it can't be argued away.

Why should we concede anything just because some men want us to?

"I don't see it like that OP. The way I see it, is the trans issue is so horrendous that it has woken thousands of women up about how many people in power (unfortunately of both sexes) feel utter contempt for us and how our sex based rights are considered fair game to throw away. It seems to have fuelled a fantastic new wave of actual/radical feminism."

Ok cool. So what has this new wave achieved, or, what will it achieve do you think?

"Some men are trying to redefine woman. Why should we let them do that?"

It's not just men. A lot of women and feminists are on board with trans ideology. It's not about letting them. Language changes happen. Like, my Mum used to resent "gay" being taken to mean homosexual. It was such a lovely word, she and her friends would complain. Its meaning changed anyway.

"Why should we concede anything just because some men want us to?"

If the way the word is used changes, like gay changed, then it won't be so useful for us. People have said we need the word woman to fight for women's rights, but of course we don't. We can fight for them anyway.

This was masculinity in the 17th century:

Maniak

I'm wondering if, because you personally have not encountered a problem with the trans ideology, except in theory, you're not seeing it.

Once the scene is set, everyone will be encountering problems. From every walk of life. Because it will be constantly challenged.

Women are being threatened, imprisoned, fired, and attacked, for simply stating what is the current law, and what is biological truth.

I cannot possibly overestimate how important this is.

Already, these things are happening, over theoretical transgressions. Harry the Owl was visited by the police for something they thought he might do in the future. Wrong think.

You don't stand a chance in hell of organising a woman's group to campaign over any of the issues that you think are important in feminism, without a man challenging you. Challenging the premise, challenging the people you have invited to discuss the premise, challenging what you want to do about it, challenging why you are in charge. Basically stripping you of power.

Currently, the only women who are able to gather to discuss feminism, or anything to do with women, are doing it in secret. Currently every single public place is subject to supervision.

Including here.

So reposting....

If you remove 'woman' then what happens to these words?

mother
/ˈmʌðə/
noun
1. 1. 
a woman in relation to her child or children.

birth
/bəːθ/
noun
1. 1. 
the emergence of a baby or other young from the body of its mother; the start of life as a physically separate being.

wife
/wʌɪf/
noun
1. 1. 
a married woman considered in relation to her spouse.

sister
/ˈsɪstə/
noun
1. 1. 
a woman or girl in relation to other daughters and sons of her parents.

Or am I missing your point?

The word woman has not changed in the way gay has, nor is it going to.

Well said Datun

Try it Maniak

Here. Now.

Take some well-known transwomen, and refer to their sex using the correct pronouns. Discuss what they are doing to women, but throughout, refer to them by the sex they are.

Do that three times and you'll be banned from this space. You're not allowed.

Talk about them without using the word woman, but still referring to their trans status as the sex they were born and you will be deleted.

Talk about autogynephilia in the context of any transwoman you think has it, and you will be deleted.

And if you're not sure what I'm saying, it's because I have already been robbed of the power to use the correct language to describe what I mean.

I agree with you OP. That's why I try to stay way from trans threads and talk about other things: mothers rights, men destroying the environment, war, nuclear weapons, women's experience in birth, the fact that men have destroyed the food system, marriage as slavery, surrogacy-- anything except the trans and maybe porn.

While trans and porn are very important issues it's the women concerned with these issues that have the loudest voices in feminism and other issues are , I feel, being talked over.

sakura, i'm delighted you're talking about other issues that affect, let's call them humans with XX chromosomes.

You go ahead and keep doing that. Meanwhile we will try and get the language preserved to enable you to do that. And then we can meet up afterwards for a beer.

So what has this new wave achieved, or, what will it achieve do you think?

The women have achieved the reawakening of their sisterhood in the face of the vileness of patriarchy and the awareness of the lengths to which men will go to assert their dominance over women and the depth and breadth of their misogyny; that their misogyny is four dimensional.

It will achieve the realisation that women must always fight against patriarchy. This brings women together in common cause. This is something about which men can never know.

For example, men do not realise that as soon as just one of them enters a woman's space that space immediately becomes a mixed sex space and it changes. Men can never know what is women's only space, no matter how hard they try to penetrate it.

"Can you name me one category where the sensible, significant differences are by gender, not sex?"

Well maybe we have different ideas about what sex and gender are. For me, anything to do with external presentation is gender, and so that includes all male perception of women, including sexual harassment, discrimination and so on. Even the idea that getting a sex change so you have a hole and that makes you a woman is a gender thing to me. How objectifying. What the body affords a heterosexual man in terms of sexual function. So I'm not convinced that that's a sex change (although I know some people are). So accordingly, for me, sex would cover pregnancy, child birth, breast feeding, and of course periods and menopause.

A lot of women and feminists are on board with trans ideology. It's not about letting them. Language changes happen.

Indeed language changes do happen, but what does not change is the natural fact that it is females who supply the large gamete and it is males who supply the small gamete. So, if language changes, now terms will still be required to express this fundamental natural difference.

Language changes have no impact on reality.

For example, we could label a sun as a moon and a moon as a sun. Such label changes do not impact on the physical function of such entities.

Is trans really such a big deal?

Yes! Radical Trans ideology is absolutely fundamental in its impact on women's rights, issues, services, spaces and sport.

The idea that being a woman is just a feeling in a man's head is insulting in the extreme - to the lived experience of all women - including those you talk about in countries in which women still are not even able to safely use a toilet or go to collect water.

If being a woman is nothing real; if there is no material reality to being a woman - then women's issues cannot be properly addressed. the very real and particular needs of women and girls are threatened by radical trans ideology.

This is the reason the the women's rights boards are so active these days...with so many new posters - myself included.

So accordingly, for me, sex would cover pregnancy, child birth, breast feeding, and of course periods and menopause.

Sex relates to gametes. That is it. There is nothing more.

In plants, animals and mammals which rely in sexual reproduction to perpetuate their species the label for the species that supply the large gamete is "female"; the label for the species that that supply the small gamete is "male".

For example, the plant that is labelled holly requires an optimum ratio of 3 female plants to one male plant for fertilisation that results in those lovely red berry seeds.