Are feminists getting played?

[Maniak]

It makes me sad that feminists are spending so much time banging on about bathrooms in a world that has women still working for no pay, old women still more likely to be poor, surrogacy, underfunded maternity care, and poor support for carers. And other stuff.

Yes, the trans thing is annoying, but have you noticed how it always fires up before major elections? It's like Afghanistan in the 80s when the US provided just enough weapons to keep the war going so Russia would use all it's energy and get weak.

I feel like feminism is getting distracted with the trans stuff. At most, it should take up 10 percent of our feminist attention. But I rarely see feminism these days that isn't all about trans. Seriously. Do you think we're getting played here? Is trans really such a big deal?

I think mumsnet is pissing people off, yes. A major thorn in the side.

I have no interest in pissing people off. I just want to protect women's rights. And it's not just mumsnet, it's every gender critical feminist fighting this.

So by working, I meant trans prisoners now having a dedicated trans wing. The GRA result announcement being kicked into the long grass. Scotland backtracking. The sports issue coming to the fore and being headlined. The Tavistock being held to account for their administering of puberty blockers.

So by working, I meant trans prisoners now having a dedicated trans wing. The GRA result announcement being kicked into the long grass. Scotland backtracking. The sports issue coming to the fore and being headlined. The Tavistock being held to account for their administering of puberty blockers.

Exactly so.

It is women finally being heard in some quarters that is causing others to have doubt and begin to ask questions about transgenderist ideology.

So we persist in doing what we are doing.

Since gender is being used more and more frequently by scientists, health professionals, politicians and others when what they actually mean is sex, it's only a matter of time before people propose that the Equality Act be updated to change sex protections to gender protections to reflect how language has changed and is currently understood.

Sex impacts how we respond to drugs, how the world is designed around us, even how we have heart attacks. Gender has no impact on any of those things it's all about biological sex.

For example, only one out of eight women will encounter similar symptoms to a man experiencing a heart attack. Because women have heart attack symptoms different to men, women's heart attacks are considered atypical heart attacks (unless they are that one in eight) leaving them often to be ignored. Women's symptoms include headaches body pain stomach aches et al whereas men typically feel a surge of pain down their arm accompanied by chest tightness without any of the aforementioned women's symptoms. Women get brushed to the side or ignore their symptoms when they're having heart attacks because they're told that's not how people experience heart attacks.

Every civilization currently standing used man (male) as the default for the design of most things from government to medicine to business.

There isn't even a crash test dummy that represents us for crash tests - it's a smaller version of the male dummy but doesn't represent the differences in our internal structure which is affected in real crashes by seatbelts, airbags, and structural protection (frame, steering wheel positions, pedal distance from seat et al). The fact that I have to push the seat 8in closer to the wheel than an average sized male puts my body at a significant disadvantage in a crash compared to any average size male body.

The seatbelts we currently have (across the chest and across the waist) are dangerous for pregnant women (better than not wearing a seatbelt in most cases) as they aren't designed with the pregnant female body considered.

Men are in the default position for humans in relation to design... not because they present male (gender) but because they are biological males. All of the things designed with men in mind benefit men that present as women because they have male bodies regardless of what their genitals look like. They have male hearts (larger) they have male lungs (larger/more capacity) they have male muscle and bone structure, and they do not have the space that we have between our ribs and hips because women's bodies have room for our larger reproductive organs. These are facts these differences not subjective things - they are what they are due to sex.

I haven't been sexually harassed or assaulted because I present as female (gender) it is because I am a female. I haven't been fighting my way to the top because I present female but because I am female in a male-dominated profession. I didn't go to some doctor and have boobs sewn on or had a penis removed/inverted or attempted to adopt stereotypical perspectives to 'present as a female' I have large breasts and a vulva/vagina/cervix/etc. because I was born a female and went through female puberty. Regardless of how I dress it's very obvious that I am a woman, everything about my body screams woman whether it be profile or fully in view.

I have a right to call myself a woman and know that it sets me apart from men, I have a right to spaces without men in them, and I have a right to my own bodily autonomy as well as language to describe myself.

TRAs like to put me in their bucket because I don't have children so they like to say that they're women like I'm a woman. They are attempting to strip away my humanity and deny me as a 'real woman' outside of their definitions. I don't identify as anything I just am a woman and all the other words used to describe who I am are impacted by being a human female.

And I just want to add that talking about AGP, menstruation fetishes, furries, paedophilia and all the other weirdness is absolutely necessary.

Unless you understand what crawls out when you lift up the stone, you're not going to appreciate the implications of the laws.

Are feminists getting played?

Question seems a bit meta, OP. Or maybe I'm just a bit paranoid. Do you mean in general or are you just referencing the seemingly concentrated efforts to give the posters on FWR the runaround with all these very similarly focussed threads this week?

Either way, yes but its not like were not used to it or unaware of it. I guess that's what happens when you're fighting a war on two fronts with bad faith operators from both opposing sides intent on sowing dissent.

Are feminists being played? Yes, all those woke lib fems who vow solidarity with transwomen are definitely being played. They will eventually come to realise that placing men's rights at the centre will end with their total betrayal, like in every other social movement throughout history.

StopThePlanet

Excellent post.

Can you imagine having to describe all those things by saying people with short bodies and large reproductive organs, or people who don't have a certain heart figuration. Instead of just women.

It's a nonsense premise.

I don't know if the OP is posting in good faith. It's sometimes difficult to tell.

But the idea that women should be known by possessing certain characteristics, rather than as a collective eliminates a class analysis. And it's something that TRAs promote.

Datun

Thank you so much! I've learned so much from your posts over the last two years - to a point that my mom will ask if a post I like and share with her is yours. Thank you for all of the time and effort you have put into FWR.

The idea of having to use so many words to describe the material reality of being a woman instead of using the word woman is infuriating. I'm verbose enough as it is - having to use all those words to describe the material reality of being a woman would just completely dilute anything I have to say - no one would actually get to the point of what I'm saying before their attention span shifts elsewhere.

StopThePlanet

I see your and raise you . What a lovely compliment, thank you!

🥂

no one would actually get to the point of what I'm saying before their attention span shifts elsewhere.

Well exactly. Language should aid communication, not make it more bloody difficult!

This idea of equality with men works okay for a lot of women who don't have children.

No, it doesn't. I have no kids and I face the following for being female:

• Sexual harassment and assault, which are based on my sex not my gender conformance or lack of because it doesn't matter how long or short my hair, what I wear, etc, I am harassed. Even as a child.
• Fear of pregnancy.
• Pressure from men to tolerate unprotected sex, even though I take most of the risk from that.
• 6500 genes are expressed differently throughout the body depending on sex, but my sex is routinely excluded from medical research so how medicines and treatments affect me, and even how illnesses affect me, is not as fully understood as it is for males.
• I have a medical condition (migraine) that affects three times more women than men, but my workplace's sickness policy was designed for men and as a consequence I am at risk of losing my job.
• Agonising menstrual cramps, with a limited range of treatments to help them (thanks to my migraine, I cannot take oestrogen), all of which have side-effects.
• My hands are about average compared to most women but smaller than most mens', so everything from garden tools to mobile phones is too big for my hands because it was designed for men. I have been injured several times because holding items is a struggle and I strain my hands trying.
• Car seat belts and other safety features were, until recently, not tested on a manniquin that represented women, only one for men. Even now, women make up over 40% of in-vehicle RTA fatalities, even though we cause fewer than 10% of RTA fatalities.
• Fall arrest gear, hard hats, safety boots, etc are designed for men, giving women less protection and causing injuries. Many supplier catalogues do not have safety boots in women's sizes.(1)
• Assumptions made about my competence at work based on my sex, and certainly not my gender (I don't wear feminine clothing or makeup).
• People talking past me and over me at work and in other parts of life. The time that a mechanic kept talking to my then-bf about my car, when it was my car and I had said it was my car not his, is particularly memorable.
• Discomfort from bras, which are a sex thing. Even transmen wear binders, which cause discomfort too. Whether covering nipples or hiding them completely, females are expected to suffer for having breasts.
• Assumptions made about my sexual habits and intelligence because of my breast size, a factor beyond my control and caused by my sex.
• The male gaze, directed at me no matter what I wear because I am female.

(1) Source: actually trying to buy some for a project at work, we had to go outside our tender framework to get safety shoes for female staff, which meant forms and weeks of delays, for safety kit that the men had delivered within 24h of requesting it. Wearing lots of socks isn't an answer, the toe cap and midsole plate need to cover the right part of the foot to protect it. And men aren't expected to wear lots of socks to cope with ill-fitting kit.
*

There are still toilets pretty much everywhere. We can still use them.

With less of a sense of safety than before. Which will eventually lead to not using them. Which will lead to women not going out of the house, quitting work, etc because they can't hold it in for long enough, or are menstruating and need to change pads too often to go out.

Single-sex toilets were fought for by our female forebears so that we could exist in public spaces. We really must not lose sight of that.

Naming 'woman' and it meaning something concrete in a material & real way is just fundamental to all woman have achieved & hope to achieve.

Even if I thought 'well, yeah - we've lost the word woman & what it meant as we knew it - so let's fight other battles'. I absolutely do not have the right to do that to my daughter, mother,sisters or indeed any other woman on the planet.

So I'm gonna stay & fight for my word.

Unless you understand what crawls out when you lift up the stone, you're not going to appreciate the implications of the laws.*

Yes it is right that women discuss all the utterly weird things that they are doing. I'm surprised men aren't dying of embarrassment from it all.

And then some behave as though this particular group don't have anything to do with them. Erm No, they're yours, not ours. Collect them please

So by working, I meant trans prisoners now having a dedicated trans wing. The GRA result announcement being kicked into the long grass. Scotland backtracking. The sports issue coming to the fore and being headlined. The Tavistock being held to account for their administering of puberty blockers.

That is impressive on the trans issue. I think it's probably always been the case that different women have focused on different areas in feminism, and gone about it in different ways.

And it's also the case that some women are liberal feminists ( and perhaps focus on laws ) while other women are radical and do other, different, kinds of organizing, gathering, writing. And some are in between the two and do a bit of both.

I just feel what the OP is saying, about trans having served it's purpose of completely making the women's movement preoccupied with it. That's what I think is so gross, in particular, about this issue.

I just feel what the OP is saying, about trans having served it's purpose of completely making the women's movement preoccupied with it. That's what I think is so gross, in particular, about this issue.

In my view, there is nothing "gross" about focusing on the rights feminists have so far achieved for all women. There is nothing "gross" about such a preoccupation to defend those hard won rights and in so doing, honouring our fore-sisters who secured those rights for us.

Feminists are not preoccupied with men who claim to be women, they are preoccupied with the obvious threat to women's rights that such men impose and with a complete disregard for our consent.

"Some men are trying to redefine woman. Why should we let them do that?"

It's not just men. A lot of women and feminists are on board with trans ideology.

I said that some men are trying to redefine the meaning of woman. Do you dispute that this comes from men? I'm aware that some women are going along with this, but I don't believe that the original idea of redefining the word "woman" actually came from women. The fact that some women have been duped into thinking it doesn't matter, or even that it would be a good thing is immaterial. The idea to redefine "woman" came from men.

*In my view, there is nothing "gross" about focusing on the rights feminists have so far achieved for all women. There is nothing "gross" about such a preoccupation to defend those hard won rights and in so doing, honouring our fore-sisters who secured those rights for us.

Feminists are not preoccupied with men who claim to be women, they are preoccupied with the obvious threat to women's rights that such men impose and with a complete disregard for our consent.*

No I'm saying what men are doing to us is gross, sorry if that wasn't clear. I'm saying they hatred of us is now very finely tuned so that we are dealing with a mind fuck of the highest order. I didn't mean women defending themselves against it is gross. I should pay attention and write more clearly, I'm in the toilets in work.

And I didn't say feminists are preoccupied with transwomen. I'm saying that the issue has dominated the women's movement and is completely wasting women's time as it is intended to

OP you talk about the surge in support for things like trans, porn, surrogacy, prostitution etc as if they're separate things. They aren't. Do you really think it's a coincidence that we have language like "uterus havers" being normalised at the exact same time the American right are calling women "host bodies" during the abortion debates, or surrogacy campaigners are referring to women as "carriers"? It's all coming from the same place, the corruption of language to dehumanise women to make us easier to abuse and control. You can't address one of these issues without encountering the others because the venn diagram of people pushing this shit is a circle.

What you're saying is "why are you spending so much time putting out fires when there's a big tail thrashing around over there, and that big thing with claws on it is squashing people?" And what we're saying is "it's a fucking dragon, just pick a bit and start fighting!"

ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASaving

I don't think the OP is disputing the importance and validity of the language issue. And I'm certainly not saying trans is single issue politics. That's why I insist that anyone who is critical understands that this is about class : men against women. So namalt arguments don't apply.

I think she's wondering if maybe we could get on with talking about other things at the same time as dealing with it.

it's a fucking dragon, just pick a bit and start fighting

:) :)

ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASaving loved your post and couldn't agree more. I think there is a huge amount of cross-over with the push from the TRAs around language and the language used in promoting surrogacy. I suspect you're right that the venn diagram of people pushing this shit is a circle.

I agree OP. I think it's a huge shame that feminist discussion is dominated by one issue to such an extent. Yes it's an important issue, but it's not the only issue. There are imho plenty of issues that impact more women more significantly.

MN has become a bit of a GC echo chamber. I think it's worth remembering how off putting many, particularly young, women find the rhetoric about trans individuals that has become common here. I think the GC movement risks putting lots of young women off "fighting the dragon" at all.

I insist that anyone who is critical understands that this is about class : men against women. So namalt arguments don't apply.

I have honestly never seen anyone say NAMALT on this board without getting gunned down immediately by a dozen other posters. And pretty much every regular poster here is very clear about the need for class analysis. FWR was where I learnt what class analysis even is. So I don't really know where you're finding this problem.

I think she's wondering if maybe we could get on with talking about other things at the same time as dealing with it.

She's more than welcome to start a thread about an issue and we can discuss it. I don't get this constant hand wringing over other people not starting certain threads. Just start a thread ffs.

Another man who has competed as a woman successfully is Rachel McKinnon (I'm not sure what his original name was).

Rhys. His name was Rhys.

I'm not really bothered about the GC movement putting off women. Like I'm not bothered that manhating might put off women.

We can't redefine feminism to make it nicer; that's caused problems for us before , where we had to make feminism nice enough for men to be on board with it which turned into a neoliberalist disaster.

And women are totally correct that because trans is at heart a class war against women, many aspects of women's lives are being affected (sports, prisons etc) . Trans is nothing more than a men's rights movement.

And yet... and yet feminism is about much more than how trans affects us. For example I think mothers are taking a massive hit in the family courts because of fathers rights activists and literally nobody is paying attention to it.

literally nobody is paying attention to it

F4J get a lot of mentions on here just try searching you can't find any?

WRT surrogacy, just last week there were about five threads running on the subject. Prostitution gets a lot of threads.

Sakura184 Maybe you should try searching for topics you're interested in or even starting a thread, before complaining no one is paying attention?