Are feminists getting played?

[Maniak]

It makes me sad that feminists are spending so much time banging on about bathrooms in a world that has women still working for no pay, old women still more likely to be poor, surrogacy, underfunded maternity care, and poor support for carers. And other stuff.

Yes, the trans thing is annoying, but have you noticed how it always fires up before major elections? It's like Afghanistan in the 80s when the US provided just enough weapons to keep the war going so Russia would use all it's energy and get weak.

I feel like feminism is getting distracted with the trans stuff. At most, it should take up 10 percent of our feminist attention. But I rarely see feminism these days that isn't all about trans. Seriously. Do you think we're getting played here? Is trans really such a big deal?

Yeah. It's like, someone is controlling the conversation and what the topic is and who gets to speak. The only options are formal or informal control. Or both

When I wanted to talk about only having female attendants in birth I was NAMALTED to the absolute hilt. We got to a thousand posts before the conversation was even allowed to get to progress to what we can do for women.

I found myself having to explain over and over again why I wanted only women. Was told I was a manhater when my reasoning was scrutinized. ( I said i think men might be pornisick, was told "oh yeah I'm sure he's getting turned on by a stretched vagina". I said he probably is, I don't know why men are there). Why is a woman even having to defend her reasoning? That is what is disgusting

sakura

You, of all people, should realise exactly how many men come on here and try to shut women up. It happens with relentless monotony.

Anyone, whatever their intention, who exhorts women here to talk about something else, will be met with deep suspicion.

Continuing to try and persuade women to change their course, will be met with hostility.

This site has about 15 million unique users per month. The occasional woman who takes exception to being repeatedly told what to do, isn't mumsnet hating you.

*Many of the academic and well read feminists have left here, not prepared to be censored. So it may come across as something of a hybrid. Outraged mothers and women, new to feminism, but suddenly lifting the lid on something they didn't know was even there. Together with women who have been radical feminists for decades.

To put your mind at rest, it absolutely recruits women, they are coming in their droves to feminism and learning. It's probably the biggest push in decades*

That's great. I just think the "not my Nigels " have a huge voice on here. "Not my Nigel" is profoundly antifeminist, as an argument. Even if it might be true about your particular Nigel.

sakura

Remember this is mumsnet. Not womansnet. A significant number of posters are parents/happily married. An extreme, 'women only at all costs' view point isn't going to sit well with everybody.

In a short time I've been called: unintelligent, a nutter, thick, disgusting (that one was courtesy of JessicaWakefieldSV ), manhater hmm ( on a feminist forum) and many more.
That makes me feel super important, yes it does

I find it hard to have to continually explain things to you, I don’t know why you need so much help tbh. You weren’t called names, your comments were critiqued and yes, I think much of what you said on that thread was disgusting and your continued insistence on repeating yourself and attempting to tell women what they should consider important, also disgusting. That doesn’t equate to hate. This reminds me of TRA’s saying if we don’t agree with their view, we are hateful. Much of your behaviour is reminiscent of them, which is why so many regulars are deeply suspicious of you.

• Continuing to try and persuade women to change their course, will be met with hostility.

This site has about 15 million unique users per month. The occasional woman who takes exception to being repeatedly told what to do, isn't mumsnet hating you*

No, I started a thread about birth: I was told repeatedly my feminist opinion was not welcome. A lot of namecalling took place, not from the odd woman.

Previous to that , I started another thread , which was promptly deleted and resulted in me being banned for a week.

Nobody is trying to persuade anyone from changing their course, this thread appears to me to be social commentary.

Anyone, whatever their intention, who exhorts women here to talk about something else, will be met with deep suspicion.

Continuing to try and persuade women to change their course, will be met with hostility.

That's great. I just think the "not my Nigels " have a huge voice on here. "Not my Nigel" is profoundly antifeminist, as an argument. Even if it might be true about your particular Nigel.

Well there's not a lot you can do about that. If that's your audience here, so be it.

Hostile reactions might well be down to those who bang on about having a class analysis spend most of their time on egocentric posts about "I" and very little of it on "we". Grandiosity has no part in class analysis.

Jus' sayin'.

Jeez Sakura no one hates you. I don’t know you so how could I hate you.

I don’t even know what the Nigel thing means.

But as I said a lot of times if we can’t define what a woman is then there will be no feminism.

It will just be a pack of people talking about stuff that relates to people

Remember this is mumsnet. Not womansnet. A significant number of posters are parents/happily married. An extreme, 'women only at all costs' view point isn't going to sit well with everybody

Totally get that Datun. I do not expect it to sit well with everyone: what I don't expect is for the "women only at all costs" view to be silenced on a feminist board. I was called an anti feminist.

While men prowl the boards with their anti feminist shite and : don't get deleted, quite the opposite: get humored, get engaged with, debated with, taken on face value.

I was told repeatedly my feminist opinion was not welcome

I think much of your problem is you think you are some kind of feminist authority because you quote radical feminists. You’re not. Much of what you write, is not remotely feminist. Your views are being challenged not because they’re feminist, but because a lot of them are strange, absurd, hateful, or just nonsense. You can keep using ‘its because I’m feminist and you’re not’ if you wish, but you’re just showing how unprepared you are to actually discuss things, rather than parrot others. The lack of self awareness and ability to self reflect, is quite obvious.

Grandiosity has no part in class analysis.

Yes I felt so grandiose on my birth thread having to explain again and again precisely why I didn't want men around me in birth. Was even offered prayers to help me overcome my issues. That made me feel amazing I can tell you. Super grandiose.

sakura

grabthar has listened to what you have said and has started a thread about other feminist issues.

There are tons of suggestions, people are eager to talk.

I noticed you haven't posted. Get stuck in.

You might have to ignore the threads/people who are interested in halting the trans juggernaut, from other feminists and threads here. It's probably better than trying to persuade those particular people to your point of view.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3649056--1-Lets-talk-about-Feminist-issue-policies

a lot of them are strange, absurd, hateful, or just nonsense.

LordRudolphVII doesn't think 2 women a week getting murdered is "that many". Why don't you go and tell him he's hateful, he's just started a thread about women who make false rape accusations.

grabthar has listened to what you have said and has started a thread about other feminist issues.

That's great Datun, but I'm quite interested in the topic Maniak has raised, so I would also quite like to keep posting on this thread for a bit

sakura184

From the small amount I skimmed, that thread was a car crash of hostility, extremity, and hurt feelings/outrage all round. It was bouncing off the walls with poor communication, abstract ideas being mixed up with practical issues and people relying utterly on their own personal experiences.

And I'm sure it suffered from a TLDR aspect, too. Because people's comments were so long.

I wouldn't say it was representative of threads in general.

Well there's not a lot you can do about that. If that's your audience here, so be it.

Well yes and no. A few women did want to talk about the topics I raised on my threads. Plenty didn't. So I thought I'd stick around and see.
Obviously if this place was simply full of right wing conservative's who were only here for the transphobia then that wouldn't give me much leeway to have any feminist discussions. I get that

That's great Datun, but I'm quite interested in the topic Maniak has raised, so I would also quite like to keep posting on this thread for a bit

Haha! And I'm not supposed to tell you to go somewhere else, right?!

You sounded as though you were hurt and upset that people were being hostile.

Now you are fully apprised of all the reasons, and I have explained exactly where the hostility is coming from.

So we're all good.

From the small amount I skimmed, that thread was a car crash of hostility, extremity, and hurt feelings/outrage all round. It was bouncing off the walls with poor communication, abstract ideas being mixed up with practical issues and people relying utterly on their own personal experiences.

Honestly, it was a lesson learned. I purely underestimated how many women were invested in "namalt" and should have gone about the whole thing differently.

From what I remember, and I might be wrong so someone who knows what I'm talking about might have to correct me, there were two posters on there absolutely renowned for derailment and effortlessly turning sensible discussions into shit shows.

Why don't you go and tell him he's hateful

Don’t tell me what to do or say here or anywhere. I’m tired of being told what I should or shouldn’t be doing by misogynists who think they can tell women what to do. I’ve made my opinions clear to that poster many times.

there were two posters on there absolutely renowned for derailment and effortlessly turning sensible discussions into shit shows

Yep. That was why I avoided the thread despite being interested in the topic.

Obviously if this place was simply full of right wing conservative's who were only here for the transphobia then that wouldn't give me much leeway to have any feminist discussions. I get that

That’s an interesting little comment isn’t it. Sakura, do you think humans can be ‘born in the wrong body’? Do you think that women should have to share spaces with males and do you agree with self ID?

As I recall there were also some very thoughtful posts on the childbirth thread, especially from Redtoothbrush.