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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Are feminists getting played?

836 replies

Maniak · 26/07/2019 14:20

It makes me sad that feminists are spending so much time banging on about bathrooms in a world that has women still working for no pay, old women still more likely to be poor, surrogacy, underfunded maternity care, and poor support for carers. And other stuff.

Yes, the trans thing is annoying, but have you noticed how it always fires up before major elections? It's like Afghanistan in the 80s when the US provided just enough weapons to keep the war going so Russia would use all it's energy and get weak.

I feel like feminism is getting distracted with the trans stuff. At most, it should take up 10 percent of our feminist attention. But I rarely see feminism these days that isn't all about trans. Seriously. Do you think we're getting played here? Is trans really such a big deal?

OP posts:
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sackrifice · 28/07/2019 23:02

Do any of the geese identify as swans

Funnily enough our head honcho George the goose, turns out is actually Georgina as she turned up this spring with a fine brood of 7 goslings, and a new man goose at her side. Who knew?

barelove · 28/07/2019 23:04

Male geese can have goslings too you know..... er.... apparently

Datun · 28/07/2019 23:09

I'm just saying, we do get it.

I'm not sure the OP got it. Hence the surprise when her comment was deleted. It's quite something to witness your own voice being eliminated.

On a forum for women. Run by women. Moderated by women.

sackrifice · 28/07/2019 23:12

A forum for women. Run by women. Moderated by women.

And monitored by..OH HANG ON

deepwatersolo · 28/07/2019 23:18

It's quite something to witness your own voice being eliminated.

And witnessing your own voice being eliminated for saying something as trivial and clearly defined as 2+2=4 is yet on another level. It is high art, akin to a Kafka novel. (Is it gleeful to point that out?)

barelove · 28/07/2019 23:36

When I've got time, I look at all the new threads on MN, no matter what they are about. When I've not got time, I only look for threads that are about how self id is affecting women lives.

This is because if self id becomes law it will affect ALL the feminist issues without exception. I don't think I'm being played, I just think I understand the gravity of this issue and realise the catastrophic effects it will have on so many things including: women still working for no pay, old women still more likely to be poor, surrogacy, underfunded maternity care, and poor support for carers.

After taking the time to read this thread OP I believe your original question Is trans really such a big deal? has been well and truly answered with a resounding YES!

sakura184 · 28/07/2019 23:48

I'm not sure the OP got it. Hence the surprise when her comment was deleted. It's quite something to witness your own voice being eliminated

True.
But I also had a thread of mine deleted on here, and a ban a few weeks ago, for talking about an issue entirely unrelated to trans or pronouns or anything

Feminism is definitely trans heavy

sackrifice · 28/07/2019 23:53

Feminism is definitely trans heavy

Because the problem is men. So, do you like cats?

Maniak · 29/07/2019 00:48

"I'm not sure the OP got it. Hence the surprise when her comment was deleted. It's quite something to witness your own voice being eliminated.

On a forum for women. Run by women. Moderated by women."

Yeah I was surprised, but it wasn't really "my voice" because I just said those things (which you suggested) to test the system. I'm still not sure which part of the rules I violated. But it's not as if a deleted post about Bruce Jenner suddenly ricochets this issue to my top concern for women. I'm actually a fan of active no nonsense moderation, just put up the rules and delete the posts, and I would compromise even more if I thought it could help discussion on important issues (not Bruce Jenner) and fixing the rift in feminism.

But yeah, the censorship is also disturbing. Not my post, but broadly. And not just the deleted posts and bans but the freezing effect, and people second guessing what they can say. That is definitely bad. On the other hand, unmoderated discussion does silence people too.

OP posts:
Maniak · 29/07/2019 00:56

"Because the problem is men."

Exactly. The problem is MEN and feminism should center WOMEN. And I understand about the rules and defining "women" etc. But I'm talking about our own thoughts and attention, which we can control to some extent. Men love us to be the audience and obsess about them all day long, good or bad. Like, a little kid jumps out and we say "oh my goodness! How shocking!" And they are delighted. And a trans woman does some minor thing and we all gasp and discuss it and center it. This role that we're taking on trans is not ideal for us, in my OPINION.

OP posts:
sakura184 · 29/07/2019 00:58

On the other hand, unmoderated discussion does silence people too

Good point. When I was doing the feminist blog circuit years ago I was surprised to see they didn't allow men to comment. I immediately said well if we want to be proponents of free speech then how can we justify blocking voices we don't like. It was argued to me compellingly, that men have the entire rest of the internet and then some, to have their voices heard.
And it was absolutely true that when there were no men in the discussion , only then could you actually have a conversation about anything. The comparison was startling. If you allowed men or anti feminists to "debate" you, the discussion got precisely nowhere.
I know I'm pretty much hated on mumsnet for bringing some of those principles here. I just think no, I give short shrift to "not all men" because everybody in the world has that opinion except a few , and I come to FWR to escape it. So for sure unmoderated comments can be just as silencing.

Also interesting is that The Transsexual Empire was written in 1979, so radical feminists have been ignored and silenced for decades. I really don't see why there's anything new to see here.

MagneticSingularity · 29/07/2019 02:15

But OP and sakura184, you don’t have to get involved in threads about trans issues if you don’t want to. You are free to start and participate in threads about other feminists issues if you want. It seems important to you both however that no one else here should get involved in discussion of trans issues either. Why are you so insistent on pushing this ‘nothing to see here, they’re just a distraction’ line when, as others have pointed out, there’s a lot to see and they’re not so much a distraction as an actual barrier to centering women in many arenas. It’s not just about bathrooms. It really isn’t.

Maniak · 29/07/2019 06:04

@MagneticSingularity "It seems important to you both however that no one else here should get involved in discussion of trans issues either."

No, I just had this idea and I wanted to see what other people think, that's all. I mean, I'm not completely delusional. I don't think that other people's online activity is somehow within my power to change.

If I want something from other people, it's for them to think about what the conversation about trans is doing, who is benefitting, what are the opportunity costs. Then to tell me, because I'm interested. And that has happened on this thread, so I am happy.

OP posts:
Maniak · 29/07/2019 06:24

"The comparison was startling. If you allowed men or anti feminists to "debate" you, the discussion got precisely nowhere."

Yeah. It's like, someone is controlling the conversation and what the topic is and who gets to speak. The only options are formal or informal control. Or both.

OP posts:
FloralBunting · 29/07/2019 06:35

Perhaps I can draw your attention to my earlier thread?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3583612-A-declaration

Putting women at the centre of focus isn't unknown on here, despite the preponderance of topics you may feel get over egged.

Floisme · 29/07/2019 07:18

I know I'm pretty much hated on mumsnet
Bless me what a revealing comment. I think sakura that you have some way to go before achieving Mumsnet folklore.

Anyway speaking for myself, yes I contribute mostly to trans threads and the reason is simple: I can talk about other feminist issues openly and comfortably. I cannot do that with transgender issues - although I am slowly getting braver - and we all know the reasons why.

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 29/07/2019 08:23

I think a lot of us who grew up in the 90’s got pretty turned off by liberal feminism

It felt like ‘man spreading and micro aggression, that’s what we’re campaigning about now? Well, those things are bad but I’m busy and if that’s all that’s left it kind of feels like you hard core feminists and academics have got this’

And then this blew up and it’s real and serious and it brought me back to feminism

So speaking for myself, when I talk about feminism this queer theory attack on women is mostly what I talk about

Those of you who have been involved in feminism for years are probably all over it, but I’m still processing, and I want to talk about it

Both approaches are fine

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 29/07/2019 08:39

I know I'm pretty much hated on mumsnet for bringing some of those principles here

Oh god the drama

Nobody hates you

sackrifice · 29/07/2019 08:43

I know I'm pretty much hated on mumsnet for bringing some of those principles here.

Lol. Gosh you really think you are notorious don't you?

And a trans woman does some minor thing and we all gasp and discuss it and center it. This role that we're taking on trans is not ideal for us, in my OPINION

We got to where we are now, with having to call this person that does this minor/major thing a 'trans woman' rather than a 'man' precisely because we thought that the powers that be could also see it was a man and so we just got on with our own womaning and let it lie.

If you want to let men carry on pretending to be women whilst taking away all your rights including the right to even define yourself, whilst you talk about other stuff then crack on.

JessicaWakefieldSV · 29/07/2019 08:54

Somebody has delusions of grandeur. Been here a week and you think a bunch of people on a forum hate you? Grin But then you also think you’re bringing radical feminism to this board 🤷🏾‍♀️

The irony of spending days on a thread repeating the same comment pretty much, that one issue, the one you continue to repeat the same comments about, is a waste of other people’s time. That you can’t see the lunacy of then wasting your time moaning about it over and over again.... I mean, practice what you preach! You sound like a TRA trying to convince us ‘there’s nothing to see here’.

sackrifice · 29/07/2019 09:07

You sound like a TRA trying to convince us ‘there’s nothing to see here’.

I know, what she needs to do, is to start a Facebook group for people who are refugees of mumsnet, because they are so mean on there, right?

deepwatersolo · 29/07/2019 09:11

I do wonder, though, OP, what are all those feminist topics that are totally isolated from the question of what a woman even is? Can't be health care, can't be pay gap (factor in all the transwomen in Silicon Valley and the galss ceiling has officially been broken), can't be shelters, can't be sports, can't be scholarships,...

Just wondering what those topics are. Abortion, maybe? But no, mention abortion and you'll be sucked into some drama about how this is not really a woman's issue because of all the pregnant men and bepenised women who can't become pregnant because evil forces deny them their uterus transplant and such...

Datun · 29/07/2019 09:41

sakura

Of course you're not hated on here. And the understanding that men instantly change the dynamic of the room is not a principle that you are suddenly exposing people to. Everyone gets that. This is a public forum, anyone can post. And NAMALT always gets short shrift.

One of the reasons why people will highlight what an individual transwoman might do is because the culture of No Debate has been very successful and many people don't know what's going on. They don't understand the scope of it, don't understand how it can be leveraged, or the absolute batshittery of a lot of the ideology.

This forum is called mumsnet and very many women, a significant amount, come to this on the back of the transing of children.

The idea that unstudied, unregulated medication is being administered to vulnerable children, with unknown side-effects is horrendous. People like Jazz Jennings, who is permanently sterile, medicated for ever, has no sex life, and has been through horrendous surgical procedures and clearly has the outlook of a child, is frightening for women whose children are soaked in queer theory and are very, very susceptible.

And it's not just about feminism. Many of them aren't feminists. They come to this particular board, to find out what's going on, to learn. And sometimes, highlighting the nuttiness of individuals, illuminates the problem far more than just talking.

Many of the academic and well read feminists have left here, not prepared to be censored. So it may come across as something of a hybrid. Outraged mothers and women, new to feminism, but suddenly lifting the lid on something they didn't know was even there. Together with women who have been radical feminists for decades.

To put your mind at rest, it absolutely recruits women, they are coming in their droves to feminism and learning. It's probably the biggest push in decades.

LangCleg · 29/07/2019 10:04

Many of the academic and well read feminists have left here, not prepared to be censored.

And I mourn the loss every day.

sakura184 · 29/07/2019 10:16

Somebody has delusions of grandeur. Been here a week and you think a bunch of people on a forum hate you?

Delusions of grandeur? In a short time I've been called: unintelligent, a nutter, thick, disgusting (that one was courtesy of JessicaWakefieldSV ), manhater Hmm ( on a feminist forum) and many more.
That makes me feel super important, yes it does

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