Are feminists getting played?

[Maniak]

It makes me sad that feminists are spending so much time banging on about bathrooms in a world that has women still working for no pay, old women still more likely to be poor, surrogacy, underfunded maternity care, and poor support for carers. And other stuff.

Yes, the trans thing is annoying, but have you noticed how it always fires up before major elections? It's like Afghanistan in the 80s when the US provided just enough weapons to keep the war going so Russia would use all it's energy and get weak.

I feel like feminism is getting distracted with the trans stuff. At most, it should take up 10 percent of our feminist attention. But I rarely see feminism these days that isn't all about trans. Seriously. Do you think we're getting played here? Is trans really such a big deal?

Yes .. it is!

See also: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights

Gosh, well that changes everything.

*@PCohle
*

*The thread is literally about whether or not the trans issue dominates feminist discussion to an unnecessary or unwise extent. I've come here to express my agreement with that opinion. I agree that FWR is the wrong place for me because of that very perspective.

I'm not trying to "tell anyone off" or silence anyone - just add the perspective that there are a lot of feminists who don't buy in to the MN consensus and who don't post here because of responses like this. And I think that is representative of a wider issue GC is creating in feminism.*

No I completely agree with you. I don't know why so many women don't understand what the thread is about.

I have theories why genderism dominates feminism. I think, for example, it affects women in power whereas the problems of women without any power are more glossed over. Yes I know there's lots of talk about prisons, which is obviously vulnerable women, but issues regarding vulnerable women that dont involve trans are completely ignored to a strange degree.

I also think that genderism is something women feel they can beat and win and overcome.

I mean how the fuck do you stop men from bombing people? You can't, is the answer. So best focus on what is achievable

Well, PCohle, it explains why so many threads here in this section are in defence of women's rights by women in the face of the onslaught against them by transgenderism, doesn't it?

I also think that genderism is something women feel they can beat and win and overcome.

I think this is an excellent point.

I don't know why so many women don't understand what the thread is about.

My understanding is that the OP intended this thread as a disruptor. That is, its intent is to raise doubt about the purpose and direction of this entire section of Mumsnet which is about Women's Rights.

Anyone attempting to raise doubts about the value of any discussions that defend Women's Rights is cause for suspicion, in my opinion.

JackyHolyoake

I see what you're saying and I get why you think this. It's because so many people do come on here disrupting and trying to devalue the work of the gender critical women on here.

I think in this case the OP is just raising a genuine point that I've also been wondering myself, and not specifically about mumsnet.

It's also the case that trans is what has really brought so many women to the women's movement. And different women are at different stages of their journey depending on when they peaked. If you've peaked pretty recently trans is going to be the main thing on your mind.

Maybe then, we are going to see a massive wave of women turning to other issues in the decades to come. God that would be amazing

It's also the case that trans is what has really brought so many women to the women's movement. And different women are at different stages of their journey depending on when they peaked. If you've peaked pretty recently trans is going to be the main thing on your mind.

Maybe then, we are going to see a massive wave of women turning to other issues in the decades to come. God that would be amazing

As someone who "peaked* in several years ago I will never stop defending Women's Rights in the face of sex self-ID and the rest of Transgenderism here in the UK.

Beyond the UK, we women must support our sisters everywhere else in the world to defend their rights against this ideology. So, I think there will be focused discussions about this patriarchal ideology for many years to come. We women have much work to do.

I think, for example, it affects women in power whereas the problems of women without any power are more glossed over.

Like immigrants to Canada losing their home based businesses and being taken to human rights tribunals for not waxing a man's ball sacks?

Pull the other one.

For the record, this part of Mumsnet is actually labelled Women's Rights.

I'm sorry, I don't understand why distinguishing women's rights from feminism is instructive in this particular context?

It feels more like an attempt to score points by "correcting" someone than it does an important nuance.

If you feel strongly about it perhaps you should start a thread in site stuff to have MNHQ rename the section in the app?

And, again for the record, there are many women working hard on other aspects of patriarchal subjugation of women in pornography, prostitution, slavery, etc. They just don't do that work via Mumsnet.

I'm sorry, I don't understand why distinguishing women's rights from feminism is instructive in this particular context?

Perhaps it is very simple?

Perhaps it is not only those women who are [radical, as in 'root'] feminists who defend Women's Rights?

I agree the board is dominated by trans issues. I also think these issues are important enough to warrant it. I respect those of you who don't. I'll read any thread pertinent to women that you care to put up.

I totally reject that it's an issue for only women in power as someone suggested. I'm disabled, poor and have bugger all power and I'm terrified. I doubt rape victims who have to share rape counselling services with penises are feeling too powerful either. Or women who work from home or provide or are provided with care services.

However, I do think there's a tendency within the threads for some people to give out messages that they know better, are better feminists, and any other view-point is spurious. There's a feeling that if you haven't got the right feminist history or stripes your views don't count. I think some of this is because sadly we get visitors who are out to cause trouble. However, it is very off-putting to women who are new to feminism when their views aren't just disagreed with, but often ridiculed. But there are also women who are wonderfully encouraging, patient in explaining, happy to share resources for those who want to know more. And there's actually less, 'get a grip, you're an idiot' type remarks on the feminist board than on many other parts of mumsnet. Speaking for myself, I might find it harder to engage with the put-downs on the feminist board because I have to acknowledge that my knowledge is lacking in many areas. If I post something that another member knows more about I'm very happy to have them explain their perspective and give me information I didn't have which might make me look at things again. But when it's accompanied by a 'oh not this again, don't we know better than this' attitude where you can pretty much see the eye-roll I'm a little disappointed that the poster doesn't consider getting the feminist messages across as being more important than displaying their rank.

But let's face it, on any forum you visit there will be people you think are dicks and people who think you are. In terms of a place for women to express their views freely and safely, I don't know a better one.

In terms of a place for women to express their views freely and safely, I don't know a better one.

I agree, youkiddingme. This Women's Rights section of Mumsnet is mostly informative, educational and very welcoming to women.

I genuinely hope you feel able to raise any question about anything of which you are curious and will receive helpful and accommodating responses.

But when it's accompanied by a 'oh not this again, don't we know better than this' attitude where you can pretty much see the eye-roll I'm a little disappointed that the poster doesn't consider getting the feminist messages across as being more important than displaying their rank.

Yes.

There are only two types of poster who post questions and wonder why on earth we're talking about this issue.

Those who don't know anything about it and genuinely want to know, and those who know everything about it and want us to shut up.

(And occasionally someone who just thinks women should shut up generally, not just about this).

Most of the time it's easy tell one from the other, but sometimes it isn't. And people make mistakes.

Plus, of course, everyone is different.

The rest of the site is exactly the same. Some people are aggressive, some people are mistakenly aggressive, etc.

Also, if you have been a victim of this ideology, or your child has, you'll be absolutely bloody fuming. Outraged and afraid.

I lurk a lot, which should probably be my username!

I am genuinely not understanding this 'argument'

Are there feminists/women who stand up for womens rights (or whatever you want to call it) that wouldn't defend a vulnerable womans situation when its threatened by male bodies/privilege?

Why is there a divide here?

I wont go into detail, as its triggering, but feeling supported by women horrified at what happened to myself and my girls in a refuge that supported males in a women only, supposedly safe, space, was a life-saver.

Are there those that would deliberately turn their back/deaf ear because its not 'feminism'?

I think this must be the case for the feminist workers in refuge, or some have to submit and cannot speak out or will no longer be able to help women and their children in great need. I wonder which it is.

But when it's accompanied by a 'oh not this again, don't we know better than this' attitude where you can pretty much see the eye-roll I'm a little disappointed that the poster doesn't consider getting the feminist messages across as being more important than displaying their rank.

I would very much hope that this is a relatively rare experience here and may be the response of someone who has had a very frustrating day for whatever reason. [Personally, I am unaware of such behaviour but I do not read every thread.]

My experience of this Women's Rights' section is that anyone who is curious can raise any question and will receive responses that inform and link to relevant references for further information.

Why is there a divide here?

I don't think there is a divide, for most of the women here. There are some who want to fabricate a 'divide' for whatever nefarious purpose.

Most women here declare themselves as feminist ... I declare myself as a radical feminist ... and there are some women here who would not take that label for themselves.

In my view, the contribution of all women in defence of Women's Rights is valuable.

Issues relating to Women's Rights necessarily exclude all men, regardless of how they choose to present themselves.

Any woman who is unable to defend the Rights that our fore-sisters fought and earned for us today without including men in their activism is highly suspect, in my opinion.

[Some men also defend Women's Rights and know that this place here is not the forum for them to express that support. And such men certainly do not demand to dominate the discourse.]

A good example of this 'shutting down of debate' was the thread a few days back about whether the societal pressure on men to either be clean shaven or neatly bearded (but definitely not sporting 'natural' growth) is comparable to women facing societal pressure to shave their legs/armpits.

It started with the same old posters from this very thread requesting that it be moved to chat as it "wasn't relevant". Upon receiving pushback to this demand on the basis that this is the main sub forum where societal expectations of body hair are discussed, they then reported it en masse until mumsnet took it down 'while we investigate as we've received a few reports.'

The thread was never reinstated and the debate was successfully shut down.

Mens hair issues? Is that a feminist thing?

Thank you, yes, definitely this:

In my view, the contribution of all women in defence of Women's Rights is valuable

Lord chap, honestly

It started with the same old posters from this very thread

Start your own thread. In any forum. On any board. Be it about tea, or hirsute people, or bic

I'm sure we'll flock!

Do link here when you're ready

PS we no longer faint at KF so if you want to go there....