The fatal, hateful rise of choking during sex - Guardian piece

[WomanDaresTo]

Please read this extraordinary piece by Anna Moore in the Guardian www.theguardian.com/society/2019/jul/25/fatal-hateful-rise-of-choking-during-sex on women killed in claimed sex games "gone wrong" and the normalisation of choking of women in sex.

When a direct threat to life is slowly normalised, “it means that a woman whose partner chokes her might not report it – and if she does, it might go nowhere,” says Edwards. “It means that if a woman dies this way, judges and juries feel ‘this is how people have sex now’ and questions aren’t always asked.”

It doesn't matter if people like it.

Whether or not people like it isn't relevant to it being a bad idea, I agree.
So I don't understand why people are so caught up in insisting that people really don't like it. It's a distraction.

The article did spend time talking about how and why it's become popular, so I think it is relevant to that discussion. Why do people like that kind of thing, where does it come from? People will ask questions like that.

There is also the question of how you talk to people who think this is ok or just accept it, in your life. My kids have a frame of reference, I meet a lot that don't. Most. The only know that their sex life is supposed to be private as long as there is consent, they have no concept that what they do could have some kind of effect on their psychological health or soul or whatever you'd describe that as. And they don't understand that their private acts have impacts beyond themselves. It's what they learn at school, from their parents, tv, in their university or colleges. I think older adults from liberal backgrounds are in a similar position a lot of the time.

Convincing people means showing them why it doesn't matter if they like it. Which doesn't work if you don't believe them when they tell you they like it. I'd like to see it resoundingly rejected but it's a hard sell, people don't have the right tools.

Had to stop reading the comments after this choice piece

I don't see any comments to this article.

I used to belong to a writers' forum which had many woke female members. That's where I first heart of trans issues and that we should be using the term cis. I was always a lurker on such posts as I disagreed but didn't want to object to what was obviously the in way of thinking.

Some of these female writers wrote porn and BDSM. They defended it with all their might, and woe betide anyone who thought that porn and BDSM were in any way icky or sick -- I thought both, but did not speak up. I knew I'd be dismissed as a prude, also because of my age. I was flabbergasted at how normal these women thought these things to be.

For instance, the main objection to books like 50 Shades of Grey was that they were too tame: " nothing to do with REAL BDSM". Real BDSM was for the truly woke. And if you objected to porn novels you were "shaming" their writers.

I left that forum eventually but the remarkable thing was: it was women who were having these woke discussions. Women. Talking gaily about BDSM and porn and lambasting anyone who wasn't 100% in favour. ALmost boasting of their BDSM predilections.

This was all about 10-15 years ago.
I was shocked then and am not surprised at the outcome -- that it has all been normalised.

The article did spend time talking about how and why it's become popular, so I think it is relevant to that discussion. Why do people like that kind of thing, where does it come from? People will ask questions like that.

This was one of the things I struggled to understand back then. These women were talking about "rough sex" as if it was the most normal thing in the world. They said they really enjoyed a good spanking. They made fun of people (women) who engaged in "vanilla" sex.
My instinct was that to enjoy rough sex there must be something really off-balance in your psyche. It did not seem healthy, it still does not sound healthy, but back in the day they made it sound as a good roughing up during sex, including spanking, whipping, etc, was the norm and anyone who didn't agree was prudish.

My own take is that sex is and should be an act of love. I still hold to that and I've never minded being regarded as a prude -- though I never spoke up, I knew that in their eyes, that's what I was.

Goosefoot, it's not just that women are talking about their throttling by this wobbly 'consent' excuse, in the thread. And yes, asking the question "Why do I think I enjoy being throttled?" is a very pertinent question.

But none of the women on this thread who have shared the details of the sexual predelictions have shown the slightest desire to ask that question. They have instead been at pains to simply say that what they 'consent' to isn't the bad kind of strangulation. Cursory acknowledgement that it might be bad in some cases if the woman 'doesn't consent' is not the same thing as subjecting your submission to open abuse to serious analysis.

Choking does not need to be more normalised than it already is. And if you choose to defend your pleasure - I do it and I like it! - over engaging with the reality that you take part in and normalise a behaviour that has literally killed other women ? Well, I don't find that a particularly feminist way of being.

Yep, wearing my Judgey McJudgey pants today, and I give zero fucks.

This, 100 times.

I think the key thing that shows there is something else going on than actual "like", is the oversharing about the sex lives. People with happy sex lives don't have to tell other people what they get up to. Women who aren't sure deep down about what's being done to them have to make a big song and dance about what they do making sure everybody else, especially other women, know what they're doing.

And this. Back in the day when I was part of that community the thing that jumped out at me was how keen these people were to boast about all the sexual things they liked and engaged in. The more bizarre, the better. And all this was supposed to be part of a normal conversation on writing, and how we were not to judge writers who had such BDSM scenes in their novels, because they were part of real life and we were not to judge. They ended up not talking about their actual writing, but about their private lives. Which was truly icky.

I used to have an uncomfortable feeling that they what they were actually trying to do was to validate these practices by having others saying Yes! I like it too! It's perfectly normal! In order to not feel that something was inherently, deeply, wrong. Having others admit to it meant that it was OK, you were not perverse in liking to be whipped during sex, everyone likes it. The more the merrier, the more normal.

Yes, they're lying to themselves so it helps to lie to others and get them to believe it too to get rid of the cognitive dissonance. It's about creating a new reality. Which is why it has to be done so compulsively (see this thread and the inappropriate interjections).

We don't believe anorexics when they claim they like being thin. We see self-starvation as a signal of unspoken distress that needs to be uncovered and helped. Yet women taking part in something as dangerous, uncomfortable and painful as strangulation by a man is given a free pass because they say "I like it" and "I consented".

Women are trained to please men. Our survival often depends on it. Women in relationships with men who like to strangle them or hurt them in other ways are forced to make a difficult choice - take the strangulation and keep the relationship or walk away. For a myriad reasons they may not want to walk away so all that's left is claiming "I like it" and coping with it that way.

It doesn't surprise me that the women doing this created a hierarchy placing themselves (the man-pleasers) at the top. It reflects the rewards men offer to women who sell themselves and other women out to men. Women who refuse stay stuck at the bottom.

Sex in the patriarchy is a weird thing. It seems to stand alone, outside of all other societal norms, and we're not allowed to make moral judgements about it.

Men being violent to women, in whatever the setting is harmful and dangerous to women. In sex though, we don't see the harm, we only see the so-called consent and the sex. Even ,or maybe, especially the women being harmed don't see the male violence against them.

It helps men enormously.

It plays into all those men saying some women like being hit. I’ve just been watching Big Little Lies. My father tried to frame his abuse as ‘fights’ between two people. I hate that this issue is reinforcing that argument.

I watched Big Little Lies too. I really had to cringe at the concept of her being "turned on" by the violence and even enjoying it.

Yeah... I don’t want to get another ear bashing today but I didn’t like the second series! I grew up with DV so I’m aware I have issues around the subject but I don’t know... I just didn’t like it overall and the angle disturbed me. Might be me... I am no expert but from my understanding, it’s not anything to do with being turned on. Even in her situation. I would of found it more believable she thought she deserved it after all the years of conditioning, the pain reminded her of her husband maybe, her need to see him as a good man. I really loved the first season.

I can't be the only one who thinks things are going backwards.

I met a younger guy recently and on the face of it he appeared quite shy and sweet.

We were texting back and forth and he steered the conversation in a sexual direction and revealed he likes double kinky stuff.

When I asked him to define that term out came a laundry list of cuffs, whips, choking ( but also being choked which he threw in to demonstrate that he believes in equality - sarcasm) slapping and blindfolds.
I was so shocked ..the ease with which he revealed his preferences highlights how normalised this is and I actually am so pleased i am older and wise enough to block him and move on but how many girls will think that's what they need to accept to keep a boyfriend?
We need to mass educate women that consent is not enough.. they need to define their own sexual boundaries and not move them for anyone.
Another thought with live porn being so prevalent is if you're cuffed and blindfolded how do you know you're not being filmed? Scary times for our young women.

Just to let you all know the response has been INCREDIBLE to this piece - we've had so many messages of support and offers of help.

I think it's reached so many people who needed to see it, and as we feared the response has confirmed it's totally mainstream for women to be choked/slapped/hit/pinned down/called a slut without consent or prior discussion when dating.

There's always one though - you might enjoy Sarah Ditum's response here.

Woman, congratulations. The traction you're getting is brilliant

and yes Sarah was magnificent on that thread. In fact she'd better have some too

I've been sharing this around (with a bit more serious stuff linked underneath) as I think making people laugh always helps stuff go mainstream and Scouse Ma is popular.

'Girls be like CHOKE ME DADDY, Wheras I'm like try that shit on me and I'm calling the police you dangerous twat - No fanks Ted Bundy lad'

www.facebook.com/ScouseMaLiv/photos/a.622187587817605/2394971137205899/?type=3&theater

We need to mass educate women that consent is not enough.. they need to define their own sexual boundaries and not move them for anyone.

This.

And yet it is so hard. I have an 18year old dd who has never had a boyfriend, who is a gentle, funny, innocent girl. I keep thinking I must educate and warn her and yet I can't bear to terrorise her with these dreadful facts.

I hear you FannyCan but I showed my 15 year daughter, who is in no way even thinking about sexual encounters, as I thought as a parent I am not privy to what her friends may discuss or share work her.
I showed her an excerpt of a 23 year old's experience of dating ( originally sent to owen Jones) which described the horrific things she had endured at the hands of dates including choking. I will also show this to my son when he's older.
Obviously you don't want to alarm or terrify your child but sadly this may be the reality for their friends and I want to be the educator rather than the consoler.

Thanks Trexical I have that Owen Jones piece saved. I keep thinking I must show it to her and discuss. I've been wondering wether to drop it in when she has some friends round but their mothers may, quite reasonably, be aghast at me so probably best not.

Is this the piece - by Rosie Redstockings:

Even so, it was only recently that I decided I wasn't going to swallow anymore. I'd never liked it, but always thought I was obliged. I told my boyfriend and he said that was totally fine, he was horrified to hear I hadn't enjoyed it previously. Why would he think anything else? This is what sex is for the porn generation

www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1slgnjt

It's a brilliant piece, and a terrible state we're in

Excellent work by those behind this and great article. How did we end up here in 2019. Thinking back to my libfem days, it felt almost obligatory to be “cool” with porn - girls and young women are groomed into it. Will be sharing this nieces.

I have read quite a lot of similar threads and discussions on Mumsnet, and am still amazed at how these sexual practices seem to have become mainstream. I have been married (faithfully) for 20 years now, but I was older when I married and certainly had my Sex and the City fun before then. I can honestly say (and no doubt I am fortunate here) I have never been treated with disrespect by any man, in the bedroom. It was about mutual pleasure, no suggestion of any harmful or violent practices and boundaries respected. Anal? Maybe because I'm a nurse and I've wiped enough bums thank you, but that is a definite No from me. But no one ever asked or suggested it - it really wasn't a thing back then. Hair pulling, slapping, spitting ? I'd have been straight out of there. Choking? I'd have been straight round to the police to report assault / attempted murder and I do believe the police would have taken this seriously back then.

And thinking of Sex and the City - I don't recall any of these sorts or practices ever occurring on the show - Charlotte took a dim view of anal and it was probably only alluded to once or twice, not enthusiastically promoted as mainstream. Sure, it was a comedy, so nothing too dark, but I don't remember any violent activities. I vaguely remember some guy revealing a liking for golden showers or similar to Samantha - it was a No from her. And fine, just a tv show, but surely to some extent it reflected the sexual mores of the time? The women had no problems with boundaries as far as I recall, and there was an expectation of the men making an effort to satisfy their needs.

So in the last twenty years, which coincides neatly with the rise of the Internet and porn, every day sex has morphed into a violent scene from a porn movie.

Clearly it isn't just women who need educating - boys do too, as evidenced by the young man cited in the article who thought his girlfriend liked being choked, while she thought he liked doing it...

Also women's magazines - it's a long time since I read Cosmopolitan but I'm pretty sure there were lots of articles about finding your G spot and other methods of giving and getting pleasure. Are they really advising these nasty violent and dangerous practices now? Shame on them if they are, this needs calling out.

Yes that's the piece, WomanDaresTo
It's an excellent piece. Maybe I will print it off so my teen can share it with her friends without me being the guilty party and an embarrassment in front of her mates?

it felt almost obligatory to be “cool” with porn

Yy I was once determined to be cool with ANYTHING, where anything turned out in fact to look a lot like degrading, violence against me, the woman.

I really like this piece by Jessica Masterson:
I have spoken to many women who, at their lowest points in life, adopted this culturally celebrated masochism, and had no trouble finding men willing to hurt them in the name of sexual liberation — men who, through porn consumption, have been sold the idea that women love nothing more than being physically harmed.
Https:medium.com/@jessicamasterson_6828/the-third-wave-dream-girl-begs-to-be-broken-9eb0bb717f29

It was about mutual pleasure, no suggestion of any harmful or violent practices and boundaries respected. Anal? Maybe because I'm a nurse and I've wiped enough bums thank you, but that is a definite No from me. But no one ever asked or suggested it - it really wasn't a thing back then. Hair pulling, slapping, spitting ? I'd have been straight out of there. Choking? I'd have been straight round to the police to report assault / attempted murder and I do believe the police would have taken this seriously back then.

I think I am older than you. In the early 70's I was a free-spirited hippie and had my share of "fun".
Not once was oral sex suggested or alluded to. I had never heard of it.
The first I heard of it was when I went to the USA for six months as an intern in 1981. I met someone and he wanted it. The very idea shocked me deeply.

Some women do enjoy it. I was in a friend's with benefits situation with a woman who would always ask me to choke her. I felt uncomfortable with this as I'd never done it before. Because it's a violent action it prompted me to ask if she had been sexually abused when she was younger; to which she said she didn't want to answer the question.

Thanks for sharing Marmozet and I think this highlights the other side of the problem. Once women are introduced to choking they may see it as normal and expect every sexual encounter to replicate the last. If there was trauma from an early age they already have an issue with boundaries and feeling empowered to enforce them.
Sex is personal and private but apart from sex toys and vibrators how have women influenced what goes on in the bedroom over the last 20 years?
Sex has become almost competitive with women encouraged to be as risque as they dare with no thought to the impact on them short and long term.