The fatal, hateful rise of choking during sex - Guardian piece

[WomanDaresTo]

Please read this extraordinary piece by Anna Moore in the Guardian www.theguardian.com/society/2019/jul/25/fatal-hateful-rise-of-choking-during-sex on women killed in claimed sex games "gone wrong" and the normalisation of choking of women in sex.

When a direct threat to life is slowly normalised, “it means that a woman whose partner chokes her might not report it – and if she does, it might go nowhere,” says Edwards. “It means that if a woman dies this way, judges and juries feel ‘this is how people have sex now’ and questions aren’t always asked.”

That thread is awful.

No sorry, if there are women that ‘like it’, they have an issue they need therapy for. Choking is an act of violence and it doesn’t suddenly become ok just because you’re having sex at the same time.

Had to stop reading the comments after this choice piece

'Have you even ever had sex? Choking is seriously one of the tamest of things LOTS (trust me) of women enjoy during funtime.'

Seriously scary to think of the less tame 'funtime' things this delightful poster would try to shame people into

I am scared for my teen daughters. Porn is so widespread and so accessible.

Thank you Anna Moore and all contributors . Horrifying.

I am scared for my teen daughters. Porn is so widespread and so accessible.

Me too

Let's be clear; if your sexual enjoyment is enhanced by choking the woman you are having sex with, you are getting excited by the possibility she could die.

I am quite happy to shame your sorry arse for being someone who ejaculates to the thought of a woman dying.

I think women do say this in a non-coerced setting.

Fair enough - I made my remark in the context of a PP's remark that

the facebook comments on this article have men complaining about kink shaming and claiming women like it

I mistakenly (?) interpreted that as an assessment that the comments are not full of women claiming this. And, yes - I wonder how much people understand about the risks of recurrent TIA and 'silent stroke' which is why I wondered if this risks will only be aired if health insurers refuse to reimburse related expenses.

The most frequent signs of manual strangulation are usually reported only in autopsies. Unfortunately, clinical findings are evident in approximately 50% of surviving patients [14]. Yen et al., described the CT and MRI findings in patients who survived manual strangulation with ischemia or hemorrhage [5].
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4211813/

There is some decent research in the arena of strangulation and domestic abuse but it will always be limited be a reluctance to consult healthcare.

non-fatal intimate partner strangulation was associated with multiple negative physical and psychological outcomes for women, though only 5–69% of strangled women sought health care, in studies reporting this finding.

Injuries of Women Surviving Intimate Partner Strangulation and Subsequent Emergency Health Care Seeking: An Integrative Evidence Review. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29292069

I will state upfront that I have no idea of the difference in physical or psychological consequences for people who are strangled consensually or non-consensually. From a swift search through the literature, there does seem to be greater research into women and intimate partner violence. To be fair, I'm unclear on whether there is research on the outcomes of consensual intimate partner violence that includes strangulation.

Having read the article in the OP, I've learned that I don't even make the ranks of vanilla, my preferences are so bland. Should the "Funtime" tweet in the twitter thread above, ought I to reconcile myself to 'bland shaming'?

What Benjispruce and Floralbunting said.

It's always very difficult to get people to see the problem with something like this if there are others who do actually agree to do it willingly. It's a mistake IMO to fail to acknowledge that there are real physiological reasons it can be a turn on, it lacks credibility to many, and then it also is a distraction in some instances.

The real issue is that even though there are real physiological reasons that some people like it, there are also very serious reasons it shouldn't be allowed. Even beyond some people feeling pressured.

But people are so unaccustomed to thinking that way, you really have to be very clear and explicit. They have been used to thinking that whatever happens with sex in private is no ones business as long as there is consent, and they often can't change that perspective easily.

Such an important article and well done for getting it placed in a news source that is doing so much to advocate for porn and reduce women's safety.

And as for that twitter thread

This was one of the most upsetting articles I've ever read in the Guardian.

With this "women like it" claim, how come there are all these women who've suddenly discovered that they like being strangled by a man when it wasn't a thing even a few years ago. I don't believe a single woman "likes" it. This is women being trained to be porn bots, to keep sadistic dangerous men happy.

The men who do this are the absolute scum of the earth. There, I just judged and kink-shamed them. It's what I like.

Thing is, even if some women do like it,

These women are dead.

So the idea is that we are consenting to being killed, which is horrendous.

But I suppose.

Was thinking this morning that the 'asking for it' thing means that women and girls dressed /acting in a certain way want to be raped, they are asking to be raped. Women and girls do not want to be raped, or killed.

Everyone knows this, but the drive to blame women and girls for the actions of men is vv strong.

So the idea is that we are consenting to being killed, which is horrendous.

Exactly. We don’t allow people to consent to certain things, thing which involve violence and is potentially life ending is quite reasonably not normally something we legally allow people to consent to. I just have never understood why adding sex to it somehow makes it totally legit. How the bloody hell have we got here?!

This practice is disgusting. Society is screwed. Why misogyny is so prevalent in the police?

Except.... I'm someone who does like it.

This is not a coerced setting (the opposite, actually! Almost something I didn't want to post because I don't think I'm articulate or eloquent enough to explain things, and would get eviscerated by Mumsnet fwr). But I do like it. So there must be women that do, and you can't say categorically that none do.

Feel free to troll check - have been around since the beginning of time. Frequent supporter of many Mumsnet feminist causes. I just enjoy being choked a bit during sex 🤷🏻‍♀️

Thank you for all who contributed to this, and the wonderful authors

The normalisation of porn is increasingly endangering women, and I am terrified for the future for young women.

And every time I hear the phrase ‘kink shaming’ I will challenge it. There is no shame in thinking violence has no place in sex.

I like being nearly choked to death.... I think you perhaps need to think about why that is.

Anyone who thinks they like it should seek therapy about why that is. They should also probably find a more appropriate time to share that here.

The Brillo

These women are dead and cannot say whether they consented.

I'm not sure what your post is meant to mean in the context of this thread. You believe this is a reasonable defence or what is it you are getting at.

I'm a speech therapist. The larynx and the airway are my professional home. I just can't deal with the popularization of this practice as a normal part of sex. I deal with injured and nonfunctional larynxes every day. This is the control of your breathing, the ability to eat and drink safely, the ability to communicate. Most of what makes life good, in other words. The Neck Is Not A Playground.

If dicing with death turns you on, take up skydiving. If you seek a major disability, id suggest something that still allows you to eat.

This practice is disgusting. Society is screwed.

This, basically.

With this "women like it" claim, how come there are all these women who've suddenly discovered that they like being strangled by a man when it wasn't a thing even a few years ago. I don't believe a single woman "likes" it. This is women being trained to be porn bots, to keep sadistic dangerous men happy.

Also THIS. I don’t believe that any women really love it. They might get off on doing something naughty and dangerous, or get off on doing something that really turns their man on, but to love being choked in and of itself? I bet there aren’t many women into auto erotic asphyxiation.

With this "women like it" claim, how come there are all these women who've suddenly discovered that they like being strangled by a man when it wasn't a thing even a few years ago. I don't believe a single woman "likes" it. This is women being trained to be porn bots, to keep sadistic dangerous men happy.

It's a fad because of increased exposure. You could ask the same thing about a lot of sex practices, they become popularised somehow, in the public eye, so a certain number of people enjoy them. It probably appeals to the same people who like other rough sex, hair pulling or that sort of thing.

It is interesting that as per article auto erotic asphyxiation has been around for yonks and was a thing that tended to be done by men. It heightens orgasm in men. Does it do this in women, physiologically, as it does with men?

Same as anal, men have a prostate! But it's women on the receiving end these days, even though physiologically the men would get more out of it probs.

Now I'm sure that women do enjoy this stuff, there are men and women who enjoy all sorts of things. But, the normalisation and expectation of these acts ibn in standard het couples, as it were, is new. It's not kinky couples experimenting with each other but men and boys having a longer to do list than they ever did and women and girls going along with it as we always have.

And the end result is, it's normal for any man to throttle this female partner, this is a terrible accudent, poor fella. Still she knew the risks.

Men aren't dying of this, are they. Even though physiologically, asphyxiation is something that heightens their pleasure.

Women are trained to say they like the stuff that men like to do to them. Nowadays it involves women being hurt and women have to say they like it. Do we really believe that women are naturally masochistic, to act as a foil to men's sadism?

Germaine Greer talked about a woman who went off with her husband (who lasted all of three weeks) who boasted to her that she did something in bed that Germaine didn't. Greer found out that what this woman thought made her so special was she "liked" getting beaten up by her male partner in bed.

It's about keeping men happy. That has always been one of women's roles in the patriarchy.