Rape cases dropped if victims refuse to hand over phones

[Dervel]

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-49072302

How did anyone get convicted before the advent of phones? This is such an egregious violation of a right to privacy.

I'm on the fence. Evidence from phones has both secured convictions and exonerated defendants in the past. So I can see why it can provide essential evidence.

That said, we need to improve the system whereby evidence is extracted. It's horrendously unfair to keep someone's phone for months. There must be sufficient resources to extract evidence in under a week or less.

Asking how we convicted people before the advent of phones, well often we didn't. And nowadays so many people live their lives on their phones.

Victims' diaries used to be used as evidence in rape trials, so this is more of the same.

Predatory rapists are being allowed to walk free because the police want to persecute victims.

I think leaving it up to the survivor is the key point, if they choose to and evidence helps secure a conviction great, but nothing whatsoever should be inferred from a reluctance to hand over the phone. Also in the article I linked they reference how phone evidence was used to exonerate a falsely accused man. However quite why the evidence was not on his own phone confuses me?

There also have to be limits on just how much evidence can be extracted.

Deleted images from your cloud many years back - not on. Deeply traumatised victims are being asked for their phones with nobody telling them just how much data will be recovered or extracted and that it will be handed over to the defence in the discovery process.

It's to the point where victims need the guidance of a privacy advocate to advised them on how much evidence can be extracted and the time frame.

This happens with domestic violence too. My friend and her son had to give their phones to the police when they fled to a refuge at the other end of the country. It was to help secure a conviction but there was a sense that if they didnt nothing would be done. So then they were vulnerable and unable to contact people like friends or her own mum.

This is such an egregious violation of a right to privacy - so is being wrongly convicted. The Courts have to find the right course. It will differ from case to case.

Actually I’m a man, and false accusations happen. However I do not walk the earth in a state of perpetual anxiety over it because it really is vanishingly rare. Rape on the other hand is at epidemic levels and something has to change. Elements like this chip away at any sort of confidence that the system works. Fewer women come forward and rapists get away with it.

We are actually at the point where I believe rape is to all intents and purposes legal. Sure it’s not on paper but if we take I think a commonly accepted figure that it’s 6% of men committing the rapes/sexual assaults just doing some crude back of the envelope calculations that mean around a million and a half rapists in the UK, there are only 80-90,000 people in the prison estate (and that’s for ALL crime). Chances of any individual rapist seeing the inside of a prison cell are very slim indeed.

Elements like this chip away at any sort of confidence that the system works.

Yes exactly.

A rape victim shouldn’t lose even more rights to privacy by having a phone taken, for god knows how long.

And yes, in practice, rape is legal because of the way our system works.

False accusations are extremely common, partly due to vulnerable people being brainwashed by cults and deluded mental health professionals.

Because of my connections to activists against quack therapies I know of many cases where completely innocent people end up in jail for terrible sex crimes of which they are completely innocent.

We live in a terrifying time in which mental health services have been infiltrated by criminals and very ruthless predators. Everyone is let down by this including victims of sexual crimes.

I think that people who claim they have been sexually assaulted or abused should have their phones examined, but it should be in a way that is undertaken by a specialist person who identifies relevant material to the police.

I went through a similar process myself when I was sexually assaulted and the defence lawyers wanted access to my medical records. I went through them with my GP practice manager who would have identified anything relevant to the police.

I did not like the process and experienced it as violating, however justice is the most important issue and given the level of false accusations, which is extremely high, we have to find ways to prove cases other then by simply personal testimonies of alleged victims.

The most important issues that need to be addressed IMO are

Police being trained by a variety of self described experts, many of whom are charlatans. Cops are gaining CDP credits for being trained to spot the signs of satanic ritual abuse by deluded quacks. This has lead to innocent people's lives being destroyed and predators evading justice. This has to stop

Mental health services not being fit for purpose and money being diverted into pseudo-therapeutic cults

Expert witnesses who are charlatans and frauds are a significant problem leading to all kinds of injustices

There is very little in the way of supportive services for survivors of sexual offences that has not been compromised by cults. This absolutely has to change. It is a terrible thing to guide vulnerable people who have been violated towards supportive services that will further violate them, all under the guise of "empowerment".

I don't have all the answers but just sharing my thoughts

False accusations are extremely common,

No they’re not. They are rare. Stop spreading falsehoods.

@JessicaWakefieldSV

I can tell you, as someone who has researched cults and quack therapies for a very long time that false memories of sexual crimes and false convictions for sexual crimes are extremely common and are being weaponised for all kinds of reasons. Hopefully following the Carl Beech fiasco things may improve but I am not holding my breath.

If you would like some real life cases to read through you can check out the testimonies here

www.stopbadtherapy.com/retracts/indexp.shtml

I am also very familiar with the case of Carol Felstead, one of a massive number of similar cases, the only difference with Carol's case is that it received press attention.

You can read about Carol's abuse at the hands of quack therapists here

www..justiceforcarol.com

I have also significant 1st hand real life experience of meeting people with false memories of incest, rape and other sexual crimes following cult involvement and bad therapy.

Just because you do not want to believe something does not make it false

There is no data to support what you say, you’re citing anecdotal evidence is meaningless to the stats. Which are clear: false accusations of rape are very rare, the lowest for any crime.

You can say it as many times as you like, doesn’t make it true.

False accusations are extremely common

Got any proof of this? Links to any stats? Or are you just going off anicdotal evidence from brain washed cult members? I mean how common is it to even be in a cult?!

I take it the accused will also have to hand over their phone?

I wouldn't necessarily be against this

However wasn't there recently a very high profile rape case involving a group of sportsmen where highly questionable messages were found on their phones, but they were still found not guilty. So what is the point? What exactly are they looking for?

I was raped last year and had no qualms with handing my phone over. That being said, I had to sign a consent form and on there stated the only bits they were allowed full access to. These were conversations between someone I disclosed it to straight after the incident and the defendant himself. I don't see what the issue is.

@JessicaWakefieldSV

There have been countless documentaries made about exactly this subject

Here are a few, I would genuinely value your opinion on these

these are old documentaries and clips

a recent scandal is in relation to this controversial treatment centre where many vulnerable patients were diagnosed with dissociative identity disorder and also recovered memories of satanic ritual abuse and incest

You criticise me for using "anecdotal evidence" and yet seek to stop law enforcement from securing real evidence from the phones of alleged victims

One of the very difficult issues with sex crimes is that sometimes there is no corroborating evidence. Juries convict because the alleged victim is tearful and appears genuinely distressed.

The problem is that people with false memories re not liars, they are people who genuinely believe that they have been abused. They make for convincing witnesses as their distress appears real.

I absolutely have to stop posting for today, and I cannot make you believe me.

One thing I can and will do very soon is to publish evidence connecting a scary number of NHS mental health professionals to abusive sex cults.

They operate by convincing vulnerable people that they have been sexually violated by their loved ones and that the experience was so traumatic that they repressed the memory.

Once they have alienated their victims from their families they set about exploiting them in all manner of terrible ways.

This is what happened to Carol Felstead. Her story is not just anecdotal. Her claims were investigated thoroughly by police after her mysterious death. He claims were found to be demonstrably false. This is not anecdotal is it fact.

I mean how common is it to even be in a cult?!

you might want to check out my posts on other threads as this will provide you with some insights in this respect

How long did they keep your phone for @stilldontgiveaf?

last post for a bit

www.theguardian.com/society/2011/dec/11/carole-myers-satanic-child-abuse

I had to sign a consent form and on there stated the only bits they were allowed full access to.

This varies from one force to another. Earlier this year I attended an event organised by Human Rights Association lawyers, Big Brother Watch etc. and this specific issue of phones and rape investigations was part of it. It seems that some forces download everything, included deleted items from many years previously. And it can be these past items that are used to discredit complainants altho' they may have nothing to do with the case in question.

@HugsAreMyDrugs extracted what they needed from my SIM within 24 hours, kept my phone for probably a month or so. I used a spare because I was given my SIM back.

Just out of curiousity, would you have to hand your phone over if you were raped by a stranger? Or just if it was someone you knew prior to being assaulted?

I can't see how handing your phone over if you were attacked by a stranger would help anyone.