I'm not convinced that feminism has helped the women it should have?

[soapona]

I think on these discussion boards and on my Facebook I see women. They don't insist on marriage so they partner remains married to the ex for years and year, they live together and I wonder what will happen should the man die. I also see women with no security living with men with no intentions of marrying and having children. Women moving in with men too soon. In the days gone by women would and could have insisted on commitment. So now the position for women is worse hanging round waiting for a proposal.

I know they don't have to I'm fairly wealthy and a single parent so have choices and always have. I don't have a lot to gain from marriage.

I'm not sure things have got better for women we are expected to do a lot now two incomes are the usual for a mortgage instead of one in the olden days . So it's a given women work, do the most childcare do we honestly think these thing will change when the power imbalance is there from the beginning?

Also the women marrying "beneath themselves", that's not the correct term but a man earning less and not likely to come into a decent inheritance. What is the point in getting married there if you're a women? Perhaps if the woman is wealthy to avoid inheritance tax for her children but other than that I don't know?

So would woman not be happier marrying the same or above and insisting on marriage early on, like it was a given in days gone by?

Surely Women are now in very risky positions due to this living together in a man's property. I see much more domestic abuse these days. I believe the stats are much higher with non married couples. Surely living together unmarried has been caused by equality and feminism and the very people feminists has been trying to help they've hindered.

The sooner more women embrace individualism, the more men will be forced to pick up the slack. Take responsibility for your own actions and stop making excuses. I would love to see marriage rendered obsolete and abolished so nobody had a choice but to do this.

I also want marriage rendered obsolete so we are on the same page there.

But quite simply men are killing their wives at a frightening rate.
Therefore I don't think feminists can justify condoning women living with men at all. It wouldn't be feminism to say cohabitation with men is reasonable, now that we are aware of the femicide rate

My feminism stands by a woman's reproductive rights and sexual autonomy. The fact that childbirth is a risk, (not sure on what scale) is a result of evolution not anything to do with men unless you believe in a male creator which I don't. Some women are very active sexually, others aren't and of course there's the menopause.

Feminism is about fighting for social and intimate justice for women which still has a long way to go, and has regressed recently. That is not a failure of the movement but it needs solidarity and clarity to go forward not backwards. You're a separatist, I'm not.
I believe we're a dyadic species and like Dworkin and unlike you I

“I don’t believe rape is inevitable or natural. If I did, I would have no reason to be here. If I did, my political practice would be different than it is. Have you ever wondered why we [women] are not just in armed combat against you? It’s not because there’s a shortage of kitchen knives in this country. It is because we believe in your humanity, against all the evidence.”

would love to see marriage rendered obsolete and abolished so nobody had a choice but to do this.

I would happily go along with this if it was marriage AND co-habiting! That changes the dynamics completely but leftie feminists seem desperate to cohabit.

I would happily go along with this if it was marriage AND co-habiting! That changes the dynamics completely but leftie feminists seem desperate to cohabit.

You're totally right. Leftie feminists reject marriage for the reasons I've pointed out and it's working out very well for men indeed

soapona I cant speak for anyone else but I’m absolutely not desperate to cohabit. I’ve never felt such unadulterated bliss as living alone

dodgeballchamp

I think most women would feel unadulterated bliss at being able to live alone. I mean that really is the feminist ideal

I'm happy to live with OH as I quite like him. If we were to break up/he died there's no way in hell I'd live with another person or even bother with a relationship.

Imnobody4

I don't disagree with most of what you say in your last post.
I know Dworkin didn't believe it was biology. I do, or at least that part of it is biology, part socially constructed, so that's where I differ from her, I guess.

So because women can die of having sex and men can't I guess it makes sense that women are the "gatekeepers".

This comment is utterly alien to me and makes me wonder how old you are. And I don't mean that in a snarky way, but am genuinely curious.

I'm 45, which means I went through my teenage years at the height of the AIDS epidemic. A fact that with hindsight I am extremely grateful for, weird though that may sound. I genuinely think my generation were lucky to be teenagers at that time.

Lucky because it was a rare moment when men had as much to lose from having sex as women. As it turns out heterosexual women are more vulnerable to HIV than heterosexual men but that wasn't known, or certainly not common knowledge, at the time. Lucky because teenage boys were just as cautious about sexual partners as teenage girls, just as keen to use a condom. Lucky because pregnancy was not viewed as the 'worst' outcome of sex. You're pregnant? Have the baby, have an abortion, whatever, if you're not dying of AIDS it's fixable. Lucky because the adults around took, out of necessity, a pragmatic rather than moralising view of sex. Yes, we know you're horny teenagers but for fuck's sake use a condom, this shit will kill you. Lucky because there's nothing like a deadly disease to worry about for getting over your teenage naval gazing.

I always feel a bit weird and wrong expressing this view. AIDS is a killer, people died. Lots of people. People still do. Yet, for me and my peers there were positives to growing up then and I'm glad I did.

And let's also not forget that the reason marriage exists is so that men can be aware of and certain of paternity

Marriage doesn't ensure that men can be sure of paternity, though.
I'm not sure how that could ever be done.
So the primary reason (in your view) that marriage exists, is meaningless.

I also had to give a hollow laugh that patriarchy considers women who marry to be wholesome and women who prostitute their bodies to be whores, yet you (a so called feminist) consider both to be "whores" - your words, which you have used many time on this thread.

I think most women would feel unadulterated bliss at being able to live alone.

I think you have spectacularly misjudged the opion of "most" women here.
Maybe you live in some kind of bubble.
I think most women want to live with a partner, and most of those want to live with men.

@deydododatdodontdeydo

I imagine these will be the woman of the age to want to settle down and have children. In my experience most woman who are self sufficient and past that stage are reluctant to have a man move in. Unlike men who jump at the chance of co habiting. Men struggle much more being single.

Women give so much more in cohabiting and marriage, especially if they are working and with kids. It's not sensible for a woman to cohabit and we need to get rid of this idea that it some how acceptable. In the 1970s where woman could stay at home with their children and they had the legal protection of being married it was better.

Older woman are far less likely to remarry not because men are gorgeous and can get young women. It because they can't be bothered and there is nothing much in it for them.

I think most women want to live with a partner, and most of those want to live with men

There is almost incessant propaganda promoting heterosexual pair bonding so you're probably right there. Especially for young women. I was mainly talking about women who are now stuck cohabiting or married with men , I guess. For those women living alone would be bliss

It's not sensible for a woman to cohabit and we need to get rid of this idea that it some how acceptable.

It's interesting that when I was involved in some feminist blogs a while back, there was a bit of a divide between the diehard lesbian separatists and the heterosexual women who were living with men.
Anyway the lesbian separatists would say that they could tell the het women were getting material advantages by living with men, for example the women in their work who were het would wear expensive clothes and so on.
The het women would respond with "yes but her women earn it, because they have to live with men. But also, that nowadays, you quite often do get women investing financially in their marriage and cohabitation in ways that you wouldn't have seen in the past, where it's true that het women are in fact bringing a lot more to the table than the man is.
Maybe it gives them more leverage in the marriage/cohabitation-- so if you contribute financially you can actually somehow force him to do the dishes, that sort of thing.

I don’t understand that point Sakura.

Women who cohabit with men are better off ( than women who live with women ) because men earn more.

Traditionally, het women have cared more about expensive clothes than “ diehard lesbian seperatists”.

It’s not that het women somehow deserve more money because they have to put up with men.

Women who cohabit with other women have less money than het couples and more money than people who live alone.

Men who live alone have more money than women who live alone because men earn more.

It’s about income and culture, I don’t think it’s about sexual orientation.

ArnoldWhatshisknickers I am around the same age as you and it was certainly not my experience that most boys and men were willing to either put on or keep on a condom, most resisted it strongly and I was left worrying about pregnancy.

Also I think while there are plenty of equal marriages in the UK on average marriage isn't equal. Marriage increases life expectancy for men, but lowers it for women. Blaming women for marrying the wrong men only works on an individual level, if most men aren't willing to do their fair share of house work and childcare it follows that most women will be married to such men and on a nationwide (and worldwide) level that will affect womens ability to achieve in other spheres. As a society we are practically groomed to think housework is a women's thing. Children's books, tv, film and adverts are all terrible for this and let face it, if as a heterosexual couple your home is a shit tip people will be subconsciously blaming the women more than the man.

Also I believe sex is far more fraught for most women that for most men for a number of reasons. Men are generally stronger than women, so there is more potential danger for women. Women have pregnancy to worry about. Because there is such an emphasis on how women look and how they should look many women are self conscious and unhappy with the way they look. Young women are sexually harassed, groped, flashed at etc. often to such an extent it can put you off sex a bit and obviously rape can have a big effect on your sex life.

So for those reasons I think women on average find sex more difficult than men and are more likely to be the ones having sex they don't really want to keep their partners happy. Some posters are lucky to have lovely partners that would never pressure them into sex, sadly in my experience that is not typical.

Not only is it not typical, it's also generally understood to be an anti feminist argument. Why would you argue that your Nigel is great? That's why feminists termed the phrase "Not my Nigel" to describe women who say this.

I've just pinched this from another thread, it's about how impossible it is for women to live alone on their wage, giving rise to questions about just how many women are having sex because they can't afford rent themselves, including women stuck in marriages.

https://wbg.org.uk/media/press-releases/exclusive-data-housing-is-unaffordable-for-women-in-every-english-region/

It’s about income and culture, I don’t think it’s about sexual orientation

I know but I think the point the lesbian separatists were making is that there are material returns for being heterosexual, a reward, if you like.
The het women argued that that might be true but surely the het women deserved what they got because they had to deal with men and the lesbians didn't
The het women also said the old school lesbian separatists hadn't "got the memmo" that these days quite a lot of het women are actually supporting men on their wage and not the other way round. A good example of that is the pregnant women who have to save up for their maternity leave while the man gets to keep his wage because "equality"

@GherkinTherapy Very True! I think woman like to make out that their men are better than they are. I have dated quite a lot of men and it never fails to surprise me how men who I consider abusive and not exactly life enriching seem to get woman who move in with them and rather quickly too. They've got to be kidding themselves!

It reminds me when a friend of mine, when we were younger we dated the same man. I went on one or two dates and realised he was controlling and had issues. He then dated my friend who told me "well he's not like that with me", needless to say she was treated terribly and it began to lead to violence. She still gets into these co dependant relationships I'm assuming she must feel worthless without a man even if they've not got much going them.

Some posters are lucky to have lovely partners that would never pressure them into sex, sadly in my experience that is not typical.

I think it runs deeper even than this. What if he doesn't pressure you into sex because he's lost interest in you because you got old or pregnant or fat. Or he had a Madonna/ whore complex and doesn't find his wife attractive anymore simply because she's now a wife. And like Greer said, "wives aren't sexy".
If he goes elsewhere for it, what then? And what if you have children? Like Dworkin said many routes out of marriage lead to the street corner for women.

So do you put on sexy underwear? Keep yourself young and beautiful. What if he's got a penchant for BDSM that he'd like to explore? If you're a boring prude you might end up getting turfed out. And as we know from that link, women can't pay rent on their wage.

So I think it runs much deeper than a man simply pressuring a woman into having sex. she has to keep him interested

Wait, so you are criticising men for wanting sex from their wives, and now also for not wanting sex from their wives?

Look on relationships board. Along with all the posts from women who's husbands pester them for sex they don't want, there are many posts from women who's husbands aren't interested in sex with them, and obviously the women want it.

Wait, so you are criticising men for wanting sex from their wives, and now also for not wanting sex from their wives? 

Erm not quite. I'm trying to point out the hoops wives and cohabiting women have to jump through to keep men happy

That why it's just so obvious to me that cohabiting women who can't leave because they can't pay the rent by themselves are in captivity, and this is the feminist argument against marriage. Well it originally was against marriage, feminism was co-opted by the left and women ended up cohabiting with men for feminist reasons without a contract.
Clearly feminism didn't really go far enough and should've said not just marriage but all cohabitation with men. Or maybe it already did but women couldn't because we don't have the resources to live alone because of discrimination at work and the pink ghetto (work losing intrinsic value when women do it, because it's women doing it)

And maybe it should go further again and say not just prostitution but all intercourse with men. And some feminists are already going there. And whether you agree with them or not, it's interesting to hear what they have to say

@sakura184 I don't know if it's possible but I would like to know the (approximate) age bracket if the women that think this way and support this theory.

Some people say all work is slavery too, and I reject their arguments as well.

You haven't commented on the fact that marriage doesn't guarantee paternity either.