I'm not convinced that feminism has helped the women it should have?

[soapona]

I think on these discussion boards and on my Facebook I see women. They don't insist on marriage so they partner remains married to the ex for years and year, they live together and I wonder what will happen should the man die. I also see women with no security living with men with no intentions of marrying and having children. Women moving in with men too soon. In the days gone by women would and could have insisted on commitment. So now the position for women is worse hanging round waiting for a proposal.

I know they don't have to I'm fairly wealthy and a single parent so have choices and always have. I don't have a lot to gain from marriage.

I'm not sure things have got better for women we are expected to do a lot now two incomes are the usual for a mortgage instead of one in the olden days . So it's a given women work, do the most childcare do we honestly think these thing will change when the power imbalance is there from the beginning?

Also the women marrying "beneath themselves", that's not the correct term but a man earning less and not likely to come into a decent inheritance. What is the point in getting married there if you're a women? Perhaps if the woman is wealthy to avoid inheritance tax for her children but other than that I don't know?

So would woman not be happier marrying the same or above and insisting on marriage early on, like it was a given in days gone by?

Surely Women are now in very risky positions due to this living together in a man's property. I see much more domestic abuse these days. I believe the stats are much higher with non married couples. Surely living together unmarried has been caused by equality and feminism and the very people feminists has been trying to help they've hindered.

Or how about, Sakura, feminism that supports both women who want to sleep around AND women who don’t want to have sex, whether that’s complete abstention or only wanting sex within relationships etc? It’s fine to want loads of casual sex. It’s also fine to not want that. But it sounds rather like you regard sex at its core as something women only do for men’s benefit, rather than something women enjoy as individuals (not to mention that not all women have sex with men!)

But maybe a feminist prerogative is saying no to men, no to their version of sex?

As a choice/option not a requirement though.

@dodgeballchamp Erm I'm a single mother and financially independent. I'm quite keen to look after my son's inheritance too. If the man had the same or more fine but if woman have money their children should come first, as they are usually left with the children. As for choosing wealthier men. If you have a child it is better to find a financially sound father even if you split up. Higher maintenance means more choices. It isn't smart to have a child with a poor man. That does not make me a gold .digger.

If a woman is relatively young and about to start a family it's better if the man is the breadwinner and the woman insists on marriage. Once you've moved in, bought a house and had a child it's very difficult to impose boundaries on men.

@soapona are you ok with men thinking the same? Especially if they have kids from previous relationships?

So everyone would just get married in the end with people from the same economic status?

Only right wing women have been saying it's not worth it and we've been ridiculing them for being religious prudes.

I have a few theories as to why right wing women think that way ,and none of them relate to the well being of women,especially not low class,poor,vulnerable women,the women without a voice.

If a woman is relatively young and about to start a family it's better if the man is the breadwinner and the woman insists on marriage. Once you've moved in, bought a house and had a child it's very difficult to impose boundaries on men.

Or how about everyone looks after their own financial independence? What if the woman wants to be the breadwinner because she has a better-paid career? What about women who don’t want to marry because they want to keep their assets separate? That’s fine, but when men feel like that it isn’t is it? What about same-sex families? Why should men marry women who can’t shoulder any financial responsibility within the relationship?

Pressed send to soon

...and everything to do with preservation of wealth,status and of course,their own self preservation.

But it sounds rather like you regard sex at its core as something women only do for men’s benefit, rather than something women enjoy as individuals (not to mention that not all women have sex with men!)

Well this one is difficult to parse. I know heterosexual women enjoy sex. I know heterosexual men certainly do.
I also know there is no risk to men's bodies and there is a great risk to women's. You can still die in childbirth. Actually the USA, which has a similar sort of feminism to Britain, I guess, has one of the highest maternal mortality rates in the world. 42nd for its high death rate, after Kenya.

So women can literally die of having sex, and men literally can't. Unless you count AIDS, which is more easily passed from men to women than the other way round

Or how about everyone looks after their own financial independence?

Yes this was. FANTASTIC feminist aim.

It has totally and utterly FAILED. Men still own and run everything.

Sakura184
So women, in solidarity with each other, opted for "free love" with left wing men, rather than saving themselves for marriage. I can see why they did it.
Well no one I've ever known had sex with a man in solidarity with other women and I was there. You really have a tenuous grasp on the development of 2nd wave feminism. You're creating a narrative that is quite surreal, I might be impressed if I didn't suspect you think you're engaged in insightful analysis.

So because women can die of having sex and men can't I guess it makes sense that women are the "gatekeepers". It makes sense that men should seduce a woman into bed, give her a reason to give it up.
But I know lots of women who think no I can have sex just like a man and do one night stands (been there, so not judging) .That's how equal I am. And I suppose that thinking works until you find yourself pregnant.
Then all of a sudden you have to backtrack because you might not even know who the father is and suddenly society believes it's very important that you should know, when there's an actual life at stake. Well that's a double standard if ever I saw one.

I might be impressed if I didn't suspect you think you're engaged in insightful analysis

I don't think I'm engaged in insightful analysis, but you're not the first person on this thread who had gleefully told me I'm thick, so thanks for that.

I might be thick but I'm still allowed an opinion , I've been absolutely piled on for saying marriage is prostitution and yet nobody has been able to convince me otherwise.

I might be thick but I'm one of the only women trying to engage with the OP's question of why and whether feminism might have failed

Instead of jumping on the thicko for having an opinion why don't you put forward theories about why or whether feminism has failed and argue your own points. Nobody is stopping you

@dodgeballchamp

Why should men marry women who can’t shoulder any financial responsibility within the relationship?

They do that now and most
Of the childcare and housework. Why you sticking up for men? Men are very good at putting their needs first.

@YourSarcasmIsDripping on the whole that is what did happen in the past. Marriage was used to protect the families assets.

Let's not forget women support their partners careers often more than men support women's. I know someone on my Facebook she moved in with a guy very quickly then started working for him. In the meanwhile she's also doing the housework and looking after his kids. He's still legally married to his ex she is mid 30s, he's mid 40s. This has gone on for four years. That beyond is stupid she should get her own career and ensure commitment before she is too old to have children which it's quite obvious she does. Instead she posts about feminism, if that's feminism I don't want that for my daughter (if I had one).

Sakura184.
Actually the USA, which has a similar sort of feminism to Britain, I guess, has one of the highest maternal mortality rates in the world. 42nd for its high death rate, after Kenya.
USA is 46th Britain is 30th and Kenya is 165th. This is why I can't take you seriously, you just string together any old rubbish.
And I've repeatedly expressed my view which you have ignored. I think it's time to accept that your views are yours and others will either agree or not on the evidence.

Well no one I've ever known had sex with a man in solidarity with other women and I was there.

What I mean is, having sex with men despite the knowledge that this might mark you as a whore, because you're sure of the belief that there should be no double standard, that you should get to have a sexuality, just like men get to. And why should women be punished for it with namecalling when men aren't.

And doing that alongside other women. And defending women's right to sleep with who they want (as long as he's not taken), despite the raised eyebrows still persisting, and the risk of overstepping the mark and being labelled.

Because men get to do what they want still without a label. They can even visit prostitutes with the knowledge of their mates. And that's surely not fair? Who makes those rules?

And the pill and abortion makes this type of equality with men possible. Except it's not equality is it. Because it's women down the abortion clinic, not men.

Why you sticking up for men?

dodgeballchamp is one of those feminists that thinks men's needs are important. I'm not one of those obv

Even within marriage there is a view that a woman should be working and not 'living off her husband'.

True, but is this not primarily a feminist view (the whole disdain of SAHM) ?

@sakura184 I don't believe feminism has failed. I actually think it has made great progress and made things better in many ways for women.

What I do believe is that the changes it made/makes are so slow that men have always been ahead of the game. For every bit of the rope we gained, they changed the rules, added extra players, lengthened the rope etc. They have used our progress in a way to benefit them when it was impossible to stop.

That's what's happening with TRAs now. Basically women have x,y,z and that's unacceptable. It would be political and social suicide to take it all back, so instead they took the insidious route of giving those rights to men (who always had it anyways), effectively pushing women out. Hell even the definition of woman is offensive now.

And I fear history will repeat itself for a very long time every time feminism makes significant strides in the fight for women's rights.

In the meanwhile she's also doing the housework and looking after his kids.

My absolute bugbear is when men fight a mother for custody or shared care or whatever it's called and then palm the kids off onto their mothers or new girlfriend.

I just think well hopefully the mum is glad of the break, but what if she's not: what if she's badly missing her kids and now they're being looked after by another woman because after fighting her for them he can't even do the job himself.

USA is 46th Britain is 30th and Kenya is 165th

I stand corrected on that. My bad.

Last time I looked the USA was 42nd. Now it's gone down 4 places, good to know.

I don't know what the fuck has happened to Kenya since the last time I looked.

And I fear history will repeat itself for a very long time every time feminism makes significant strides in the fight for women's rights.

Yes well we can agree on this.

But can we also talk about hijacking.
So for example it was feminists who coined a theory of gender, that our roles are socially imposed. Personally I think male roles are pretty much biologically driven but that female submissiveness is violently imposed. I also think that female desire to be with their baby is biological, not cultural. So basically I think a mix of both, but I thought the original feminist theory was interesting and sound.

Trans ideology jumped on feminist gender theory, perverting it, and twisting it to its own ends.

Same with the idea of sexual liberation for women. It just meant more women for the pimps

Same with the idea that women can earn money -- now we see that women are actually taking care of men financially , while providing wifework , sexwork, and even having his kids too ffs!

It's not feminisms fault that we keep getting hijacked

My absolute bugbear is when men fight a mother for custody or shared care or whatever it's called and then palm the kids off onto their mothers or new girlfriend.

In a nutshell this is what happened. He's another leftie and he has blogs about being a feminist himself. Of course feminism is serving him well, so who could blame him?

And can I just say , just because some women are taking care of men financially does in no way mean that we have achieved anything similar to economic parity with men. The mega rich, the CEOs, the ones in positions of power are men.

It's not feminisms fault that we keep getting hijacked

Another thing we can agree on.

Let's not forget women support their partners careers often more than men support women's

Women are free to stop choosing to do this. Women are free to not couple up with men who expect to do no parenting or household chores. Women are free to discuss the division of labour before marrying or having children. Women are free to demand their male partners do 50/50 childcare. Unless they’re in abusive relationships where their sense of self and freedom has been damaged and destroyed, which is of course a different situation, women do not have to make any sacrifices they don’t want to make. The sooner more women embrace individualism, the more men will be forced to pick up the slack. Take responsibility for your own actions and stop making excuses. I would love to see marriage rendered obsolete and abolished so nobody had a choice but to do this.