Want are your views on the concept of 'slut shaming?'

[AnotherAdultHumanFemale]

I feel like slut shaming is another one of those 'liberal feminist' things used to shut down discussion, similar to how they call anyone who is anti porn and anti prostitution a SWERF or a prude etc.

On the one hand, I don't go around shaming women for dressing provocatively and think everyone should, within reason, be allowed to dress in a way that makes them feel happy and comfortable. But on the other hand, I don't think it helps women as a whole when some women base their entire careers on 'being sexy' or when professional sports women (and other professional women) start posing for pornographic type photos.

For example, there is this talented female golfer who, instead of focusing on becoming a brilliant golfer and winning tournaments, starting posting sexy photos online. As a result she started gaining tonnes of (male) followers whereas her peers, who are much higher ranked than her and who win tournaments, are virtually unknown because they just wear normal clothes and are not seeking a specifically male fanbase. The other professional women golfers were not happy with the way she conducts herself because she gets promotion in sports magazines and sponsorships that they don't, even though they are much higher ranked than her and play the sport seriously. By promoting her over the other women golfers it's as if the magazines are saying 'we're not bothered about women actually being good at golf, but we are definitely interested if they want to pose for pornographic photos.'

She accused these women of 'slut shaming' and of course her millions of male fans agreed. I'd much rather see her become a great golfer and leave the sexy posing in the past, because I find it kind of cringey and depressing. To me it just reinforces the stereotype that women are best off focusing on being pretty and sexy rather than trying to actually achieve anything of note.

I hate the word slut, it's just another word used to keep women in their box.

I'm very much of the opinion that women should be able to wear what they please without comment, but I'm aware I'm in the minority.

Sponsorship has always gone to where it is most effective.

I would never use the word slut. I do criticise the likes of Miley Cyrus who hide their very limited talent under explicit, sensationalist videos.

There was a discussion a while back about one of her videos where she was dressed in baby clothes rolling around in a cot.

Most people agreed the video was vile but many posters objected to direct criticism of Cyrus. Posters defender her on the basis that, well poor her , that's what a woman has to do to get on in the music industry.

Even if that were true (it isn't and it is insulting to women with real talent) by the time this video came out Cyrus was well established, rich and successful.

I don’t know. I might get flamed for this but if a man had slept with 50+ people I’d be grossed out and wouldn’t date him. I’d think it was pretty rank. And so I don’t think it’s great for women to do, it’s not safe.

Statistically it’s unlikely l they wouldn’t have caught some kind of STD. Barrier method contraception only protects from some STD’s.

To be honest I do think dressing provocatively is in a completely different ballpark to say sleeping with a different man every weekend. Also I thought the Wrecking Ball video was very artistically done.

I don’t really understand the concept of ‘shaming’ full stop - mum shaming, fat shaming, slut shaming ... I think shame is something that comes from within - not something that’s projected on to you.

No woman should be made to feel bad about their choices of clothes or how they forge their way in the patriarchy - as long as they do not force their choices on others. I would never use the word slut to describe any woman.

No, it’s not just ‘liberal feminists’ who object to slut-shaming either as a concept or an actuality, anyone with any pretensions to feminist leanings should object to it. Your post is just a thinly-veiled judgmental and nasty attack on the choices of not just this woman but all women to present themselves any way they wish and market themselves and their careers any way they wish. Your misogyny is showing OP and that’s a far worse look than a glamour spread in a sports’ magazine.

Ignoring the above unpleasant response, I was just coming on here to say thanks everyone for the varied and interesting replies.

I've noticed some confusion with the term 'slut shaming' - to clarify, I don't agree with the word 'slut' either, I think it's horrible and I'd never use it. The word 'slut' is not coming from me - 'slut shaming' is a term the liberal feminists have coined themselves, in a similar way to how 'queer' is now used as a positive word whereas in the past it was offensive. Their point is that if a woman wants to do porn, be provocative etc then that is her choice and she shouldn't be shamed. I agree with them to a certain extent, but also think that if all of us just stop trying and just become porn actresses then we're not doing future generations of women much good showing them that women can do and be anything we want, we don't just have to give up and appease men.

I feel that it's sad and disappointing to see talented women just turn to pornographic modelling rather than learning new skills and becoming great in different fields. A Woman's Place UK often showcases inspiring women of the past and I love reading about what these women achieved in fields like science, medicine, art etc.

LassOfFyvie I agree with you about Miley Cyrus, she has an incredible voice. From what I understand she has now returned to more country style music and image to accompany that and has left her previous style behind. I guess everyone likes to experiment and play about with their image, and I don't think everyone being super prudish is helpful either. I think, just maybe more of a balance is needed. I'd love to see a return to how it was in the 90s where women like Alanis Morrisette were super successful and never had to dress up and act sexy, her voice was all that mattered.

I think I will just leave it there, I'm not going to honour the above poster with a response because that message was unnecessarily insulting and rude, totally uncalled for in what has been an interesting discussion regarding liberal feminism and radical feminist views. I've never heard a radical feminist say that porn or dressing like a porn star was positive, healthy or empowering in any way, I've only ever heard liberal feminists say this.

Mmmm - don't think it's that simple Magnetic. The buyers in the 'market' are mostly male so what's marketable is young, attractive, sexually available women, almost regardless of the profession. No reason not to take advantage of that as individuals (if you are young, attractive, sexually available) I suppose, but to do so is surely to perpetuate an unfair system and to undermine other women's chances of success. I've watched it happen and it was hard to take.
Don't think that has anything to do with slut-shaming though.

This was something I did struggle with when I was a libfem and it was one of the things that I think prevented me from being able to make the move to radfem. I saw a lot of shaming of women for their choices when it comes to sex. It took a while for me to reconcile how I feel about sex vs radical feminism. I know that in theory there shouldn't be a conflict but in reality, there is.

Anything that a woman does to 'make herself sexy' (for want of a better term) is open to criticism for letting the side down, capitulating to the patriarchy & porn culture. Dressing up, wearing makeup, shaving her legs etc. Yet sex is a biological drive. Women want and enjoy sex - that's good, but some feel pressured into performing in a way they don't want to in order to satisfy men - that's not good.

Women aren't making choices in a vacuum, but women need to be free to make those choices without undue pressure from either the patriarchy or other women.

Thanks Oldstyle and VoiceofReason, you've found the words I was struggling to find myself.

I totally agree VoiceofReason, I feel the same conflict, that's why I posted this. I'm straight and have always been considered 'feminine' and wear dresses and makeup etc. But like you said I know this is kind of against radical feminist views.

I've just tried to find a balance myself, I think like most women, where I dress in a feminine but not sexualised way and have always focused on my career over men. I do think it's such a difficult balance, especially for straight women who actually want to attract and date men.

I can see why this golf player has made this choice, she's really pretty and photogenic and now has a career based on her looks, when she was struggling to get into golf tournaments. I don't think she is a professional golfer anymore. I guess I just found her choice sad, given her talent and the work she'd put in so far to becoming a pro, especially seeing all of the sleazy comments she gets from men treating her like a piece of meat, but in the end it's her choice and if she is happy with that then that's fair enough. I just feel, in the words of Oldstyle who summed it up really well:

"...but to do so is surely to perpetuate an unfair system and to undermine other women's chances of success."

"if all of us just stop trying and just become porn actresses then we're not doing future generations of women much good showing them that women can do and be anything we want, we don't just have to give up and appease men."

This is why it's better to criticise men. It doesn't always work, but prostitution exists because of men, pornography exists because of men, the demand for young female pop stars to be sexualised comes from men. If you keep your focus on what men do and the power structures involved in getting women and girls to behave in this way, you avoid the whole issue.

I hate the term "sl*t" BTW. It's a term men invented so they could identify the women they were sanctioned to sexually assault or rape.

I dislike the term 'slut' too Erythronium, please see my above post about how it has been appropriated in the phrase 'slut shaming' in a similar way to 'queer.'

But the origin of the word? I consider myself a domestic slut. Nothing sexual about it. We should be proud of domestic irrelevance

If a man uses the concept of "sl*t" to justify the rape he committed against a woman, it's probably a word to stay far away from. Any older meanings it had have been eclipsed.

AAHF, sorry didn't mean to imply that you didn't feel the same. I think you're right that lib fems have appropriated it. This reclaiming of words is generally BS. It just gives permission to bigots to use them.

Thanks for understanding, I was worried that everyone here thought I was calling this woman a 'slut' when it is not my language, it is the language of liberal feminists. When someone criticises hyper sexuality, they say they are 'slut shaming' a bit like how they created the 'slut walk,' so in these two examples they are actually calling themselves 'sluts' if that makes sense. I think it didn't come across clearly in my original post hence the confusion.

Also good point Cuntysnark, I hadn't even thought about the origin of the word. Language is fascinating how it constantly changes, and how a word can take sudden drastic change if a group decides to appropriate it or declare it offensive. Similar to how the TRAs seem to have banned 'transexual and transvestite' in favour of 'transwomen' because they knew that women would never accept the former into their changing rooms but by appropriating the word 'women' it makes women feel guilty and bad that they are somehow 'excluding other women.'

Slut shaming is the pits. Men do it because they're massive hypocrites and constantly place demands on women that they'd never dream of putting on men. Usually ties in with weird notions about women being receivers of sex rather than active participants. Says a lot about how they view women and their bodies.

I think Women get into slut shaming either because they want male acceptance ("I'm not like those awful slutty girls!") or because they're annoyed that other women don't present or conduct themselves in a way they see as credible or respectable, and that this somehow reflects on all women. Or something like that anyway.

As for Miley, she's young and full of energy and sexuality and to me it just looks like she's trying to find her place in the world. A way to express herself that feels right. She's just been doing it all in the glare of public spotlight. Most kids/teens/young women don't have to consider that stuff. I think Miley's alright. She comes across as a decent human being and that'll do me.

I struggle with this concept too.

The netball this weekend has been fantastic as these strong, talented women are doing so well and I haven't seen them half naked bent over a sports car. And I really hope I don't, I want young girls to see women being respected for being good in their careers, in sport, in academics without the need to add sexuality to the mix for the appetite of men.

When I see women wearing really revealing clothing, I do judge them in my mind and I can't help it, I think why do you want men to notice you that much?

When they are famous I do it even more, if they are a singer I think, just use your voice, make awesome music videos, why do you constantly have to remind men that you want them to fuck you? If you watch a music channel for say an hour and make a mental note of how men and women are represented and what message they are giving in the video it goes something like this:

Male music video: I'm strong and powerful
Female music video: I'm sexy
Male music video: I have loads of money and cars
Female music video: look at my arse
Male music video: I'm rich and shag loads of women
Female music video: look at my tits and arse

Over and over, it's depressing.

As for Miley, she's young and full of energy and sexuality and to me it just looks like she's trying to find her place in the world

She's 26. She was 22 when she made this.

She was already rich, famous and successful. I don't buy into the idea that "oh dear - what can a woman do- we're all so oppressed by the patriarchy".

I never use the word slut or the word handmaiden. I do however expect grown-up women to take responsibility for their actions and think things through.

Miley looks like she's controlled by the music industry - stylists, PR people, directors, music execs. I'm sure she has very little to do with how she is portrayed apart from going along with it.

Exactly and look at these examples I have just found, I know this was a quick and crude search but hopefully it shows how some women are represented.

Three very famous women

You almost have to remind yourself that they are singers. But to judge them is it un feminist? I am a feminist but I struggle with women and the media representing women like this. Why? I can't get my head round it. Can't they just be amazing singers with their clothes over.

Why does Beyoncé feel the need to get on the floor with her arse in the air wearing very little clothes? Would her husband do that? No.