Want are your views on the concept of 'slut shaming?'

[AnotherAdultHumanFemale]

I feel like slut shaming is another one of those 'liberal feminist' things used to shut down discussion, similar to how they call anyone who is anti porn and anti prostitution a SWERF or a prude etc.

On the one hand, I don't go around shaming women for dressing provocatively and think everyone should, within reason, be allowed to dress in a way that makes them feel happy and comfortable. But on the other hand, I don't think it helps women as a whole when some women base their entire careers on 'being sexy' or when professional sports women (and other professional women) start posing for pornographic type photos.

For example, there is this talented female golfer who, instead of focusing on becoming a brilliant golfer and winning tournaments, starting posting sexy photos online. As a result she started gaining tonnes of (male) followers whereas her peers, who are much higher ranked than her and who win tournaments, are virtually unknown because they just wear normal clothes and are not seeking a specifically male fanbase. The other professional women golfers were not happy with the way she conducts herself because she gets promotion in sports magazines and sponsorships that they don't, even though they are much higher ranked than her and play the sport seriously. By promoting her over the other women golfers it's as if the magazines are saying 'we're not bothered about women actually being good at golf, but we are definitely interested if they want to pose for pornographic photos.'

She accused these women of 'slut shaming' and of course her millions of male fans agreed. I'd much rather see her become a great golfer and leave the sexy posing in the past, because I find it kind of cringey and depressing. To me it just reinforces the stereotype that women are best off focusing on being pretty and sexy rather than trying to actually achieve anything of note.

I'd rather see photos of the men creating those images. Name and shame.

I'd rather see photos of the men creating those images. Name and shame

Women as powerful and successful as Beyoncé and Cyrus are complicit in this.

No her husband would get a woman to do it. For example he's the one responsible for Rihanna's sexy reincarnation.

Let's talk about the men for a change Lass. It's boring to go on about the women, and it changes nothing. If it's not them another woman would step into their shoes. Men have created spaces for hyper-sexualised female performers, because that's what they want.

I agree with you MrsTumpletap. Ariana is another example - a super talented singer but her music videos are becoming so explicit - one is about how she can't walk properly after having too much sex with her boyfriend, another one is set in some sort of sex worker house from what I can gather. I know I sound like an old prude but I just can't help thinking, where will this end? I often wonder if eventually, porn will just be everywhere on mainstream tv in the daytime, since it's very nearly there anyway. There are always comments under music videos from men saying they 'don't need to bother to look for porn' because music videos are just pure sex. There seems to be a gradual blurring of boundaries between singers and pornographic actresses, some of the most recent female singers/rappers are former sex workers which just wouldn't have happened 10 years ago.

I also agree with you Erythronium that men have created this world, but feel that women need to take a stance against it. These women could rebel and say that they want to be known for their voices, not their bodies if they wanted, especially since many of them are now super successful millionaires themselves rather than new singers trying to get noticed.

I feel like I was born in the wrong era with all of this extreme hyper sexualisation, I just can't get my head around how we've got here and why most people don't seem to see a problem with it (or maybe they do, but like me they get told they are being misogynistic 'slut shamers' for pointing it out, similar to how people call others terfs etc). It just seems so damaging to women, to young people, to society in general.

Men have created spaces for hyper-sexualised female performers, because that's what they want

Women don't have to fill those spaces. Especially women as rich and successful as those 2. There are plenty of women who have careers in the music industry without the need for filling hyper sexualised spaces. It's rather boring always having to find an excuse for women's behaviour.

This bears no comparison with women having to resort to prostitution, porn etc for economic reasons or because they are trafficked.

Miley Cirus has admitted in an interview that after the Disney stint she was really struggling to break through as a solo artist. She was given the advice to get sexy and so she did, and she made millions off the back of it. It’s ALWAYS about the money.

Miley Cirus has admitted in an interview that after the Disney stint she was really struggling to break through as a solo artist. She was given the advice to get sexy and so she did, and she made millions off the back of it. It’s ALWAYS about the money

Is that supposed to be a justification? I suppose having little actual musical talent and a burning desire for fame and money might lead to that path.

Two female artists I much admire are Courtney Barnett and Courtney- Marie Andrews. They probably won't ever be as rich as Cyrus but they are talented musicians earning a living and retaining their integrity.

Slut is a nasty word, but the idea of slut shaming, most of the time, is used by people to shut down anyone talking about how women themselves participate in oppressive and detrimental social practices.

I think many people, including radical feminists, are really conflicted. They are happy ta talk about how abstract institutional structures, or men, or the media, or the patriarchy, oppress women through things like the fashion industry, or Hollywood movies.

But they feel very uncomfortable then saying, yes, those Moadonna videos lead to the objectification of women and that is the kind of thing we should be avoiding, or being supportive of a school dress code that says that students need to wear clothes avoid overtly sexualising themselves, or that having a bunch of minor girls being overtly sexualised in the school might not be good for the boys there either.

Maybe there are a few reasons for that. The best is a tendency to see the women being oppressed and so not wanting to criticise. And yes, sometimes you have to be sensitive to a particular individual. But some women (Madonna, in this instance) do have power and are happy to benefit themselves at the expense of other women and there is no reason they should escape criticism. And people need to understand that not all criticisms are personal slights, someone can point out a powerful social force, and it's not an attempt to shame people.

I'd also argue that it does a disservice in the long term to a lot of young women to avoid making them aware of their personal agency or the effects of the things they do, or the fact that they are being manipulated. It's like they are being silently stripped of some off the power they could have to avoid making them think about their own perceptions and actions in a way that might make them a little uncomfortable. But being uncomfortable that way is how personal growth happens, and it's always been the responsibility of the community elders to point this stuff out to the young. I sometimes think that we are reluctant now because we all want to seem with it and not yet old.

The other reason sometimes people dislike this kind of discussion is that they say it shouldn't be up to women to solve this stuff. But how would it be solved unless women also buy in? If some women don't see a problem? You can hardly expect men to accept that it is a problem when some (many) women don't see it that way. Why should they believe this small sub-set telling them that the misogyny of the fashion industry harms women when it is making billions of dollars from women that think it's great and say it is empowering?

f course MC was having trouble. She is not a bad singer but her music like most of the pop these days, is boring and sounds like it could be anyone. You have to differentiate on the basis of image.

There seems to be a gradual blurring of boundaries between singers and pornographic actresses, some of the most recent female singers/rappers are former sex workers which just wouldn't have happened 10 years ago.

There are some television shows now where they have hired porn actresses as well, for the sexualised elements on screen. People think it's incredibly prudish to object, but they don't see the wider effect on the women. You have minor roles taken by these women or other young actresses willing to strip off. Actresses with more clout can get out of it by having a body double, usually they are older or like Emma Watson already have some power to negotiate. What does this mean in terms of getting employment that could lead to better roles, or at least bring in some money until you get some? There is a huge amount of pressure because it's such a competitive industry, and IMO it has to feed into problems like expectations of actresses being sexually available to producers off-screen as well. If you sell your sexuality on screen it's not a big leap to do it off-screen, and then it too becomes something of an expectation, even if it's unspoken.

I imagine that back when people were fighting for the censors to allow more adult material, they weren't really thinking that it would lead to young women trying to compete with porn actors for parts.

It. Changes. Nothing, LassofFyvie.

Men getting women to fight amongst ourselves when they are the ones oppressing us is an excellent trick. It keeps the focus off them.

If you want things to change, go after the men. If you want to simply criticise women and change nothing, well go ahead, but it's pointless. You brought up prostitution, well you don't end it by arguing about which women "chose" it. You end it by making it illegal for men to buy and sell women.

Hypersexualised women in the music industry are products, sold by men. The men get to hide behind the women, so we're all so busy criticisng the latter we don't even notice the former exist.

To me, it suggests a lack of faith in the material.

Which is completely unnecessary, as Rhianna et al are all genuinely talented women.
I do get the impression, though, that's it's not entirely their ideas.
I would imagine that record labels and management have more to do with such decisions.

If you want things to change, go after the men

And the women who co-operate. I'm so bored with this idea that women have no agency, are never to blame for anything.

And it's deeply insulting to women who have a career without behaving like this.

Men get criticised here all the time for having an opinion about things women do.

How should men then be telling someone like Beyonce they shouldn't be doing that stuff? If her husband said something to her, Gee, my dear, don't you think maybe you are making the exploitation of women worse, what about our daughters?, people would freak. If women say it's ok, who are men to disagree?

It's so paternalistic to act as if women can't think about their own actions. And when those actions enrich them on the basis of other women's oppression, you are just excusing class oppression.

Your post points out the obvious.
She isn't top five so uses what she does have to premote herself and her image.
It does come down to money.
Katie Price has used her body all her life as it is her only asset.
She fully knows that she is using the men to make her millions.

I'm not sure sports stars are the best example to use.

Physically attractive sports men and women have long made more money in sponsorship, endorsements, product lines etc than their less physically attractive counterparts. I recall similar arguments about Anna Kournikova in tennis, and David Beckham isn't richer than Paul Scholes because he's an objectively better footballer.

It isn't fair but then they are in the entertainment industry and it is all about money.

As for the term 'slut shaming', I understand its use in the context of not blaming victims of rape/sexual assaults on the basis of the clothes they wear but between professional golfers it just sounds petty and vulgar. Ugh.

If you want things to change, go after the men

But men are scary, really scary.

This sums it up really well, thanks Goosefoot:

"I think many people, including radical feminists, are really conflicted. They are happy ta talk about how abstract institutional structures, or men, or the media, or the patriarchy, oppress women through things like the fashion industry, or Hollywood movies.

But they feel very uncomfortable then saying, yes, those Moadonna videos lead to the objectification of women and that is the kind of thing we should be avoiding, or being supportive of a school dress code that says that students need to wear clothes avoid overtly sexualising themselves, or that having a bunch of minor girls being overtly sexualised in the school might not be good for the boys there either.

Maybe there are a few reasons for that. The best is a tendency to see the women being oppressed and so not wanting to criticise. And yes, sometimes you have to be sensitive to a particular individual. But some women (Madonna, in this instance) do have power and are happy to benefit themselves at the expense of other women and there is no reason they should escape criticism. And people need to understand that not all criticisms are personal slights, someone can point out a powerful social force, and it's not an attempt to shame people.
I'd also argue that it does a disservice in the long term to a lot of young women to avoid making them aware of their personal agency or the effects of the things they do, or the fact that they are being manipulated. It's like they are being silently stripped of some off the power they could have to avoid making them think about their own perceptions and actions in a way that might make them a little uncomfortable. But being uncomfortable that way is how personal growth happens, and it's always been the responsibility of the community elders to point this stuff out to the young. I sometimes think that we are reluctant now because we all want to seem with it and not yet old.

The other reason sometimes people dislike this kind of discussion is that they say it shouldn't be up to women to solve this stuff. But how would it be solved unless women also buy in? If some women don't see a problem? You can hardly expect men to accept that it is a problem when some (many) women don't see it that way. Why should they believe this small sub-set telling them that the misogyny of the fashion industry harms women when it is making billions of dollars from women that think it's great and say it is empowering?"

I think we’re overcomplicating this and tying ourselves in knots trying to avoid criticising other , when the solution is the pretty familiar concept of “shame the behaviour, not the person”. So, “Madonna is a slut because she writhes around naked pretending to masturbate on stage”- not cool. “I don’t think the way Madonna exploits her sexuality makes her a good role model or does anything to further the cause of feminism, and I think that’s pretty shit given how much influence she has”- perfectly valid criticism.

It's so paternalistic to act as if women can't think about their own actions. And when those actions enrich them on the basis of other women's oppression, you are just excusing class oppression

Agreed.

And Doobigetta that distinction sums it up very neatly.

you are just excusing class oppression

I think this comes down to, where do you have the most to lose? By ignoring the effects of sexual oppression you are insulated from already, or by attacking class oppression that you benefit from yourself?

Sorry I know I’m in the minority clearly but I do find it gross if a man or woman sleeps with 100+ people. 🤷‍♀️ It’s not healthy. There are STD’s to think about any many of them aren’t prevented using barrier method contraception.

I wouldn’t call anyone a slut though.

Not sure about the phrase but I will fall out hypocrisy when I see it. You can’t build your entire career almost solely off the back of wearing next to no clothes, writhing around going on about sex all the time and then complain about being objectified. Fair play if you do it. Just own it.

I also disagree when people say they primarily do this to appeal to the taste of men. The majority of all the big female stars fans are women. I don’t know any bloke who’s into Beyoncé or Adrianne Grande. Ok my tastes aren’t representative of everyone but you only need to look at who’s going to the concerts. It’s women (or girls) who mainly go. Same as how all the crap magazines which people complain about are usually read by women, written by women and edited by women.

I’ll hold men responsible for some of things but you can’t put everything on us. Do you think men care about all the expensive make ups, creams etc women pay for. Most men couldn’t tell the difference (or care about for that matter) if someone was wearing a £200 product or a £5 one

This is why many people, men and women (not just men) roll their eyes at and fail to get on board with the ‘feminist’ movement even when they are fully on board with equality, women’s rights etc. They shouldn’t not be but some do end up not being as supportive as they should be about real issues rather than made up ones.

But itnis t just about the nudity and hyper sexuality these women project it's the submissiveness I hate. The bend over and take it stance, the do to me what you want stance.

When men are making millions fully clothed and almost nonchalant about how little they need to show their sexuality to be successful. Such a double standard.

How in 2019 can women feel they need to look naked and ready for sex to sell a song? When Men don't, how can the music industry not see how ridiculous and demeaning it is not just to them, but to us. The other women trying to be taken seriously for our minds, thoughts, decisions when these powerful rich women are undressing and bending over, when they don't have to.