Video of JY tribunal.

[ahumanfemale]

This is something else. The tweets seemed crazy but hearing it...

Doing this is a separate post in case it gets deleted.

m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=6s_AvuaxMd0&fbclid=IwAR2w3FUWWPMKTLrfMXJEhCu3SPjKG2--n-4JzBPMuooUKZp1-QUbxPGq39M

How is this person allowed to present contradictory evidence about themselves and just handwave and refuse to clarify? While rape victims are still grilled on what knickers they had on and their sex lives etc? Yet this person is allowed to just bypass explaining themselves because feels? (And yes i know a human rights tribunal is not the same as a criminal trial but really. Perhaps a few more awkward questions and the need for actual evidence pertaining to the material facts, ie the complainant’s genital configuration, would a) be in order and b) discourage frivolous and vexatious future litigation by this person and/or others)

It does not and cannot happen that one individual has a) a distinct penis, functional or not b) a pair of descended testicles hanging outside the body c) a vaginal cavity with an internal connection to d) a female reproductive system including ovaries and a womb from which menstruation occurs. It simply is not possible.

There are a couple of intersex conditions (out of many, where the person is clearly genetically male or female) where one individual has some cells/body tissues that are male (have a Y chromosome and/or SRY region) and some that are female (no Y chromosome/SRY region present). This is caused by genetic mosaicism at conception or very soon after and is where the old fashioned idea of hermaphrodism came from (because they may appear to have ambiguous genitals with eg a large clitoris that is mistaken for a penis or a shallow vulva, or undecended testicles or ovotestes (both male and female tissues so ambiguous between a tested and an ovary or ambiguity between the 2).

Such an individual would very obviously have a DSD (disorder/difference of sexual development) that would be very evident at birth (not at 6 or 13/14 or whatever BS JY came out with). They would also be highly, highly likely to be infertile and very unlikely to menstruate. I would imagine they would have more important concerns managing their rare and complex medical condition, possibly exploring reconstructive surgery and hormonal therapies, neither of which JY has shown any involvement in, and wouldnt be overly concerned about vanity activities such as waxing any pubic hair which may or may not be present. I find it insulting on their behalf that JY, who clearly has no understanding of the biological basis of these rare conditions, is attenpting to coopt their distressing personal realities into JYs utter bullshit.

If he does have this type of of intersex condition, which I highly doubt, why isnt he fighting for intersex rights? And surely he would have been bleating about his condition for years before, rather than just to try and muddy the waters when his BS and inability to form coherent arguments was being shown up. Even if he did, there is no way he has a penis and testicles which could be waxed and a vagina that menstruates.

I find it insulting on their behalf that JY, who clearly has no understanding of the biological basis of these rare conditions, is attenpting to coopt their distressing personal realities into JYs utter bullshit.

I too cant understand why someone with knowledge of intersex has not been asked to testify

The name of the condition, and a few searching questions, would put the entire thing to bed.

Boom25

When I've looked into intersex conditions, it seems to me that if there is a Y present, then that person is male. If there is no Y, then the person is female. Would you say this is correct. Or are there other variables?

Turner syndrome, for example, where the person has only one X, the person is obviously a female and we know this because it is the X that enabled her to survive. Had she been male she wouldn't have survived because the Y can't sustain life without another X, but a single X by itself can sustain life.

It's totally correct! 😄

The thing is that, as with everything to do with Mother Nature, there is always a (very rare) exception. So rare its hardly relevant to discussing intersex (and certainly utterly irrelevant to the trans debate). I only ebver mention because you just know some smart arse on twitter will bring it up and use it as "evidence" that everyone else in the world who is irrefutably biologically male OR female is actually on a spectrum/ gender fluid / queer / non binary /sex is a spectrum / there are 57 varieties of sex etc etc and all that utter codswallop.

I think the tribunal judge is doing a pretty good job. They're allowing JY the opportunity to say pretty much everything they want thus mitigating the claims of bias/unfairness that will inevitably come.

It is the judge who will make the decision. They will not be unduly influenced by improper evidence in the way a jury might.

I am really concerned that this has been recorded though. I'm not a Canadian lawyer but if you did that in England/wales you'd be in no end of trouble and it'd be fairly easy to figure out from the seating arrangement who made the recording.

The wikipedia article on intersex is quite a good summary of a complex feature of human genetics en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex, particularly the section on "Conditions" where it is the last 2, Other - Mosaicism/Chimerism and Other - Ovotesticular disorder (formerly known as true hermaphroditism) which are conditions which you could, simplisticly, argue were "both male and female" because cells with and without Y chromosomes are found in some tissues of the body, to varying degrees (or Y chromosomes without the SRY region or X chromosomes where the SRY region has mutated onto the X chromosome). These people categorically don't have a waxable cock and balls and periods)

It's a complex variation of the normal binary, and I dont claim to be an expert (I wrote my thesis on the genetic basis of intersex conditions for my degree in Molecular Genetics, but some years ago so I am not up to date and I am not a doctor). Which is why it pisses me off when people like JY who don't have so much as a Biology GCSE, never mind a biological sciences/medical degree spout off about it and try and conflate intersex with trans

Do Intersex Men Have Periods?

• @MRKHVoice The Blog of Claire Graham

“I’ve been asked to comment on some of the claims made by Jessica Yaniv in their recent British Columbia Human Rights Tribunal hearing (there’s some background to the case here for those not familiar with it), as well as other comments they have made in the past pertaining to being intersex.”

Full blog here
mrkhvoice.com/index.php/2019/07/21/do-intersex-men-have-periods/

v interesting blog

Suffice to say, if Yaniv has a penis, they do not also have a vagina.

Exactly

In summary, there is no DSD where someone with male genitalia menstruates. There are a number of complex conditions that can lead to a mix of internal organs. These often involve other health implications and can be traumatic and life changing for people to come to terms with upon diagnosis. They are not fun talking points by which other people can validate their gender identities by the spreading of misinformation. It does not help people with those conditions.

Yep

I couldn’t finish the video. It’s so weird that I had to stop. No sense was being made at all. I only made it like five minutes.

They're allowing JY the opportunity to say pretty much everything they want thus mitigating the claims of bias/unfairness that will inevitably come

yup, this has been my point all along - although I do think that a medical examination is called for, because it looks like - note I'm not saying is - that JY is lying under oath.

But I think JY is very unwell, and that that has led to some cognitive deficits, which mean that JY can no longer distinguish between truth and falsehood. It seems that JY lives in a world of their own, with little reference to everyone else's reality.

although I do think that a medical examination is called for, because it looks like - note I'm not saying is - that JY is lying under oath

JY has to prove their case. Part of that appears to be that he has female genitals. Whether this means he is claiming a "female penis" or some sort of neo-vagina is not clear. Either way JY has to prove their case which they could by submitting medical records.

In the absence of any such proof (and the quite obvious contradictions) the judge will almost certainly decide that JY is lying and that they do not have female genitals.

Well, let's hope so. And then that JY is prosecuted for perverting snigger the course of justice.

But he's like Humpty Dumpty: "Words mean what I want them to mean."

With apologies to Lewis Carroll.

Thing is, whether JY is lying or what genitals they have is sort of a distraction - obviously relevant in real life, but the case here is whether the defendants (JY is not on trial) discriminated against JY because of JY's 'transgender' status (that status isn't really in dispute, despite it being clear as mud what it actually means!).

That is the question the judge will be seeking to answer.

What genitals he has goes to the hear of the case.

JY says he was not waxed because he's been discriminated against because he's trans.

The defendants says he was not waxed because he has a cock and balls and they do not offer a cock and balls waxing service.

JY has said he is trans and intersex - intersex is not a protected class. He says he has a penis and a vagina but intersex is not having both sex organs and he really should have looked this up before making claims in court, but no he is not on trial.

Ultimately I don't think someone should pay compensation to a person they could not provide a service to that they were not trained to provide.

Beyond that, as you can refuse the right to serve someone in a bar (like lesbians in t shirts), you should be able to refuse the right to serve anyone who makes you uncomfortable, particularly a lone worker or when you work from home.

Beyond that I don't think you should have to defend your right not to wax someone when you have religious reasons not to.

Personally I don't see why JY should be refused a facial or an arm wax in a salon if they do this for men, but I'm not the one doing it and he is a predator and maybe a woman's instinct was just she didn't want to be alone in a room with him.

This is not really about discrimination, for JY it is about money and power and fame.

What genitals he told the beauticians he had has bearing, not what genitals he actually has. Unless he told them he was intersex it's irrelevant to why they declined his custom. Even if he told them it still doesn't say anything about what parts he may have available for waxing, so still irrelevant unless he said more specifically what condition he had and how it affects him.

There was a clip of JY being interviewed on TV this week, where he claims that he can get pregnant. He also said that he only changed his name to Jessica this year.

Jessica is the name of the 14 year old girl he was grooming for abuse. That Jessica has submitted a criminal complaint for sexual harassment.

JY is a seriously sick individual who poses a very real threat to women and girls.

My point is the case is for the defendants to 'prove' they did not discriminate due to transgender status. It's about their thought processes and decision-making - or at least it would be in any sane court whereas here it's a big mess about whose profile picture was on what message etc. The actual material reality of JY isn't really in question here.
I agree it should be.

Sicario

I didn’t know that about the name etc that is truly sick. Jesus.

Did his mother say that the court case should not be allowed, that the police were coming any minute with an ambulance?
It was hard to follow.

I don't see how his trans status can be the discriminatory factor. It's his status as a male.

If a woman who was trans wanted a Brazilian i'm sure they would've done it.

It's the same argument whenever you look. People aren't discriminating against transwomen on the basis of how they identify, it's on the basis that they are male. Because they don't discriminate against transmen.

And in the uk the equality act provides for that. It absolutely recognises that transwomen are male.

Well I thought that was the case that was brought to the Human Rights Tribanal. That they discriminated due to his trans status. Which isn't allowed in Canada.
I completely understand all the arguments; I just think this is the actual point that is supposed to be being defended.

Datun I agree and that's why in a way it's so frustrating that what should be a fairly simple case has gotten completely lost in all the madness.
JY: You discriminated because I'm trans. My argument is that once you knew I was trans you refused service [there is also apparently a public/private distinction here that's important too, which also seems to be being lost].
Defendants: nope, here's the messages, we refused service because you seemed to be biologically male and we do not offer that service. Your trans status is not a factor.

Presumably the burden of proof would need to be quite high that the trans status was the actual deciding factor because how on earth do you prove what someone's motive for doing something was?