Antinatalism has a point but it upsets me

[sakura184]

So I've been involved in feminism for many years.
I got involved in quite a radical group and as time went on I learned about antinatalism.

These radical women very much despise mothers and it didn't feel any different to the run of the mill patriarchal undermining and despising of mothers.

But they do have a point. They say we shouldn't have had babies at late stage patriarchy because we can't protect our children, the environment is polluted beyond all repair, that women have lost their access to clean and plentiful food and water. We have given birth under inhumane conditions and for this we should experience a deep guilt. One said "I can't imagine being able to live with myself after doing something so heinous".

Anyway i find it upsetting and was just hoping for maybe some sort of support thread or something. I've given birth twice and only now I do see that the antinatalist feminists have a point but obviously it's too late for me to change what I've done. They think women who gave birth are either stupid or evil beyond compare

How to carry on, in regard to what kind of future our children have. I wish we didn't live under patriarchy, and could raise our children safely and happily.

The antinatalsits would probably say this is a horrible, self indulgent thread. That mothers just should suck it up and live with the guilt, but I can honestly say I had no idea how bad things were when I decided to have children and I think most mothers are like me.

I think you are missing the point OP. The vast majority of antinatalists do not consider themselves to be feminists.

Yeah. I've always seen antinatalism as a reaction against motherhood. Mainly from men. But more generally I think feminism hasn't been so great about including motherhood. It should center motherhood rather than have it as a lifestyle choice.

For example, equal pay for equal work is fine for women without kids or caring responsibilities. But why should women work so hard and end up so poor? Why are mothers so isolated and excluded from community decision making? Why isn't feminism centering all that?

Antinatalists cannot be feminists. Feminists, by definition, do not despise women and the biological functions related to being female

The writer in the link Sakura posted is an equal opportunity despiser (?) She hates and despises everyone.

She is apparently an attorney, although there's no indication what her field is. I can't imagine how she interacts with clients or fellow attorneys given the intense loathing she seems to have for all humanity.

Endofthedays

Well the antinatalists I'm talking about are, or were, radical feminists. Maybe taking the step into antinatalism means you're no longer a radical feminist, I don't know. Antinatalism is the logical progression of thought . A step further than separatism, I guess. Separatism makes a lot of sense and so does antinatalism. But like I say the antinatalism comes from mommy hate and I'm not sure how feminist that is. Maybe it doesn't matter one way or another. They are right and I suppose it's a good thing to educate young women and girls. But making mothers feel like shit for something they can't change now because it's too late, not sure what I think about it.

Maniak

Yes I think mothers have the least privilege in society and the reason I think this, after a lot of thought on the issue, is because mothers voices and issues are basically sidelined in feminism.

Feminism is prioritizing the issues of radical lesbians who are childfree, and while I support the struggle and concerns of radical lesbians , and view them as part of the general struggle, I've noticed that mother's rights and issues pertaining to mothers are basically totally and utterly ignored in feminism.

I think it's because mothers have the least time, energy and resources.

Well the antinatalists I'm talking about are, or were, radical feminists. Maybe taking the step into antinatalism means you're no longer a radical feminist, I don't know. Antinatalism is the logical progression of thought . A step further than separatism, I guess.

Well that certainly seems like the final puzzle piece that explains the point of this bizarre thread.

Lets all stop being radical feminists and go home!

(Claiming that the anti-natalists are widely accepted as feminists in feminist circles in response to a load of FWR regulars going ‘uhhh, what?’ was a particularly dissonant highlight )

They are right
What are they right about? Beyond the world's problems are caused by humans? They are certainly not right about anything else.

and I suppose it's a good thing to educate young women and girls

Do you think there is anything in that blog you linked to which is useful for young women and girls? I don't think the writer should be allowed anywhere near young girls.

Whao, the person in that last link is so incredibly negative, it is untrue. He or she loathes her mother and her family while at the same time complaining that they won't take them in.

When I was anti-family in my youth, at least I was coherent and didn't feel entitled to any favours.

I think that biological denialism is the other extreme of biological essentialism.

I think that there is such a raw truth about what it means to be human in motherhood, and that conscientious women raising conscientious children is a potential not to be sneezed at. I think that society would collapse into a ginormous shitshow without mothers. Basically, they sound like insufferable loons.

I also really agree with Goose here:
I think we actually have to be very careful about how we conceptualise having children. There is a very strong push these days to see them as a sort of consumer choice, a luxury product. In this view people choose to have them in much the same way people choose to buy a pedigreed dog. That has a lot of implications for how we see family support, support for parents in law, and also issues like surrogacy are very much affected by this mindset.

Whao, the person in that last link is so incredibly negative, it is untrue. He or she loathes her mother and her family while at the same time complaining that they won't take them in

I read some of her other articles and they are all the same. Unremitting negativity and general hatred of everyone.

The OP referred to her as a woman she admired for her feminist writing but she is so extreme and so full of loathing I can't see how it is possible to take it seriously.

I know it’s early, but i’m completely failing to see the “logical progression of thought” that goes from radical feminism to “the world is going to shit and it’s all women’s fault”

These people hate mothers, have always hated mothers, and the environmental angle is just a new trendy stick to beat them with.

I got involved in quite a radical group and as time went on I learned about antinatalism

So is the woman who’s blog you posted part of the radical group? You seem to be classing antinatalism as a branch of feminism and I just don’t see it.

I think Feminism has a long way to go in this world. I do feel that if globally women everywhere could be given access to a decent education and the right to control her own fertility the birth rate would drop.

I waited to have children until I could afford it. why anyone would bring a child into this world in a war zone, when you have no food to eat or where there is awful sanitation and waterborne disease is beyond me. It is easy to look from the outside in. You realise a lot of these mothers were children themselves when they were married off and probably have no choice whatsoever over their sex lives.

I also think that necessity is the mother of invention, and there will get to a point where we will have no choice to treat our world better, and come away from the disposable, want, want, jet set lifestyle. It will be a different world, but hopefully a better world. Our children are going to have to build this world. I have 3 children and they are being brought up to care about this planet.

In the future I don’t doubt people will die. People already suffering and struggling to get by in poor nations with better respect for the planet than us are going to be affected the worst.

They are right that bringing new life into this world is probably selfish, and over population does not help. However if humans are so evil then why as someone said upthread are they not committing suicide? Are they living the high life? Foreign travel? Cars? Fancy food? Expensive tastes? Buy from new each and every time? Because if they are they are hypocrites who are probably a little bit bitter.

Well everyday is a school day I hadn’t heard of this peculiar brand of nihilism before. The hope that human ingenuity cannot innovate around this problem is as valid as we’re fucked beyond all chance, because nobody can actually predict the future.

Not saying that gives us carte blanche to continue screwing the environment, but still, have some perspective. The solution to bringing the birthrate down boils down to two essential principles: give girls equal access to education, and give women reproductive rights. It’s empirically repeated across every culture that has tried it.

Spending time trying to convince western women to feel crippling guilt over having children is a little pointless on two counts, one it doesn’t commit mental resources, effort and focus on where actionable steps could be taken (namely third world and developing countries women’s rights) secondly western women in the main seem to be walking guilt factories anyway.

Sorry Fuckit cross posted there it doesn’t just feel right it’s empirically measurably and objectively true. It also reduces political/religious extremism too.

Also ffs us men could just abstain from sex, we’re just as morally culpable. How someone could say it’s feminist and yet seemingly absolve men of any and all responsibility seems a little ass backwards to me.

I've not come across them before but, from your description, they sound like Antifa's less sensible sibling.
If they have enough power over you to make you upset then I would disengage and walk away. Don't give them brainspace.

i just ignore these people. They arent concerned with me or my childrens rights, so their cause is a bit different to mine. I get what theyre saying in theory, but it obviously has no bearing on my reality, and im not leaping at the chance to take on even more maternal guilt than i already have, when life is shit enough already cheers

im not leaping at the chance to take on even more maternal guilt than i already have

I know, totally

It's extremism.

And in theory there are currently enough resources in the world to support our population of it were managed better. The problem is really western excess and population growth being too high. Both these things are, in theory, things that could be changed. The issue is the lack of international political will to address exploitation and non sustainability of resources on the one hand versus the right of those to find a living to merely survive.

It's a supply and demand issue which is out of control.

It's another of those ideologies that looks at a problem from the wrong angle and decides the way to solve it is through projecting their hate at a chosen target to blame; a target which really isn't the ultimate source of the problem.

This is why you read it and think 'oh they have a point' because they have identified a genuine social problem. The issue is where they go with that problem is complete arse.

Same with all extremism.

It's also a comment on patriarchy, all the suffering caused by male domination. They think we should've ended it centuries ago instead of letting it carry on and on.

I honestly believed women had come on in leaps and bounds because that's what libfem media was telling me was true. I thought the battles had been won. They really really haven't but there's a huge propaganda machine called convincing women they have.

The thing is there is a strong biological urge to procreate for most (though admittedly not all) people.

I find any kind of extremist view like this, which tries to deny that we are, beneath it all, a mammalian species with hormones, primitive impulses and inherited behaviours, both impossibly obtuse and magnificently egotistical.

We might be a neurologically advanced species, compared with other animals, but we are still, at the heart of the matter, animals. And however much handwringing we do, we can’t change that.

We can do the best we can, to live as a more just, egalitarian, free and fair society- but, regardless of individual choices, holding our fellow humans to impossible philosophical and theoretical standards (militant veganism, extreme zero wasters, antinatalism etc etc) only sets us up for further discord and division.

I have a child, just one, and he’ll be my one and only. I worry about the world I brought him into but he’s here now- why should I feel guilt, for obeying my instinct? Which was to continue a pregnancy and give birth, not abort? It was instinct, as pure as I’ve ever felt, when I faced the choice, to bear him or not- why should I berate myself for that?

These are evil and moronic views. Just ignore them.

Is their view that humans should make ourselves extinct to save the planet?

Some people just hate other people. They might find an excuse in politics, religion or ecology, but the fact is they want rid of other people. It’s never themselves who are the problem.