Antinatalism has a point but it upsets me

[sakura184]

So I've been involved in feminism for many years.
I got involved in quite a radical group and as time went on I learned about antinatalism.

These radical women very much despise mothers and it didn't feel any different to the run of the mill patriarchal undermining and despising of mothers.

But they do have a point. They say we shouldn't have had babies at late stage patriarchy because we can't protect our children, the environment is polluted beyond all repair, that women have lost their access to clean and plentiful food and water. We have given birth under inhumane conditions and for this we should experience a deep guilt. One said "I can't imagine being able to live with myself after doing something so heinous".

Anyway i find it upsetting and was just hoping for maybe some sort of support thread or something. I've given birth twice and only now I do see that the antinatalist feminists have a point but obviously it's too late for me to change what I've done. They think women who gave birth are either stupid or evil beyond compare

How to carry on, in regard to what kind of future our children have. I wish we didn't live under patriarchy, and could raise our children safely and happily.

The antinatalsits would probably say this is a horrible, self indulgent thread. That mothers just should suck it up and live with the guilt, but I can honestly say I had no idea how bad things were when I decided to have children and I think most mothers are like me.

Most antinatalists aren’t feminists though.

I honestly don’t see how it is defensible to tell other people they shouldn’t have children.

If someone thinks the world is over populated and we should reduce that population, well they can start by not existing themselves, rather than advocating it for other people.

Oh FGS. Throughout history, our ancestors lived through some appalling times. Even today, many people do. Who are we to say that because those lives weren't/aren't perfect, they weren't/aren't worth living?

I think it's a bit of a derail to argue whether the women are feminists. They are and have some standing in feminist circles

Well you are the one who is making a case for them being feminists. I don't care if they are or not. Their argument is no less impractical or unrealistic or plain bonkers just because they might or might not be feminists.

Why is it antinatalists always see other people as the problem? They always think that the solution to the world’s problems means reducing the number of other people. You never see them lining up outside the Soylent Green factory themselves.

*Endofthedays
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Most antinatalists aren’t feminists though.

I know. It's bothering me, the mommy hate. And yes, placemats, there is pressure on women to have children but I guess the feminists are saying women shouldn't be weak and feeble and cave into it.

Idk, I've been treated with by such distain by women I admired and whose work I loved because they really don't like mothers. Mother- hate is so patriarchal though. Blaming mothers and hating mothers is #1 in be patriarchal rule book

Is antinatalism any different than anti-immigration? It’s the same ‘we are full already’ mentality but on a global scale.

To reduce the population of the earth, men should deposit their sperm in a bank and then get a vasectomy, one that cannot be reversed.

They particularly hate mothers of sons.

This bothered me a lot because defining a woman by what kind of child she has produced is so patriarchal that I expect better of feminists. Women aren't defined by whether or not they've reproduced, at least I don't think so. I'm still me. I'm just me with children now

I definitely wanted to have a baby when I hit 30. Getting pregnant was very easy and I very deliberately chose a partner who I thought would be a good father and , terribly un-feminist of me, would be a good provider for our child.

Getting pregnant is easy for the vast majority of people Lass. There is a sizeable majority of women in this world we inhabit who don't have the luxury of 'waiting' till their 30 for the desire to kick in.

I would hope Lass you have empathy to recognise this.

I was referring to the OP questioning whether there was a primal biological imperative as if this was an odd concept.

You had just posted you have two sisters and two cousins, adult human females, each and every one who never had an urge to procreate. or not. In contrast to your sisters I definitely did and it kicked in when I was 30- not before.

Your little attempt to educate me is irrelevant to that particular point - the point being, in case it's not clear, is there a primal urge to procreate?

Maybe anti natalist feminists aren't feminists then.
Yeah I know what they're saying is correct, in that the only way patriarchy will grind to a halt is if women stop having children. They are technically 100% correct.

But hating mothers just isn't feminist. Psychology encourages men to blame their mothers for their faults and even their crimes: I once read a book about the crimes Japanese men committed against Chinese and Korean women during the war and the book argued that the men behaved like this because they had overbearing mothers. Basically blaming women for war and for men's war crimes.

Mums do get blamed for fucking you up, this is patriarchally mandated thought, nothing really feminist about it

Also, it's such an extreme "solution" that of course in a weird way it's logical... If human beings stopped reproducing it would end patriarchy. And war. And traffic jams. And crap Christmas adverts. And killing of elephants for ivory. Doesn't make it a sensible proposition though!

Yeah I know what they're saying is correct, in that the only way patriarchy will grind to a halt is if women stop having children. They are technically 100% correct

Well that's ultimately a cure for all the human made ills of the world. Even much of the environmental damage would be ameliorated by natural regeneration of flora and fauna.

Do they get much exposure? I've never heard of them before.

As others have alluded to above, I don’t understand why they aren’t killing themselves if they feel so strongly people ought not exist.

Also you say in your title that they “have a point”. What is that point? Just that there would be no human made problems if no humans existed?

I think they are so disillusioned by patriarchy, especially the raping and killing of babies, that they just do want it all to just stop

If we need fewer people to exist you should list who to get rid of and how to dispose of them, or who to sterilise. I’ve got a feeling people like me would inevitably find themselves on such a list, just as they have previously

It is always someone that is not part of their circle of friends and family, preferably someone on the other side of the world, that they want to be anihilated, isn't it?

I think a lot of this movement is so that people won't feel so bad and protest about wars and man-made famines. And if they can continue to discriminate against mothers, children and old people, so much the better.

Sure but why do that through bullying women about babies? Why not go crazy with a gun or a truck in a crowded place? I don’t understand the focus on pregnancy.

Interesting stuff though - I’d never heard of it. The quick reading I’ve done doesn’t seem to be much to do with feminism though. Do you have a link to a feminist group? I can actually only find men advocating it although admittedly I haven’t looked for long.

Sorry, cross post. My reply is to Sakura.

Sure but why do that through bullying women about babies?

I know. They could be going around killing pedophiles rather than slagging off mothers

Antinatalists cannot be feminists. Feminists, by definition, do not despise women and the biological functions related to being female. That would include "breeding".

Funny how women are always the ones pejoratively called "breeders", not men. As though men have nothing to do with it. Until it's time to add a surname, then they're omnipresent in the process. Hey ho.

Sure but why do that through bullying women about babies?

Some lots of men hate that women can make new people and they can't.

Hope the link works. This one is called "Our Mothers want us Dead"

cannabisrefugeeesq.wordpress.com/2019/02/01/our-mothers-want-us-dead-another-antinatalist-post/

These feminists do regard women as breeders, I just think that's weird in that it's what patriarchy thinks of us anyway. Nothing new to see in that respect