Are you a real woman?

[Gingerkittykat]

article

Notice how the author was instructed to delete woman's hour because she didn't like something Jenny Murray said. Let's silence any dissenting voices that don't accept womanhood is a mere feeling inside.

(as an aside is woman's hour any good? I always associate Radio 4 with twee middle class Englishness and the odd time I listen when I am in the Highlands and can't get any other radio signal in the car I end up getting annoyed with it and switch off)

Bold fail!

And let's be clear that this is a woman saying this.

If the only reason a person doesn’t want to have sex with a trans woman is because they have a penis, and they have not previously had penis-related experiences to base their level of desire off, then that is transphobic and closed minded. The same way that not considering a same-sex relationship because you think you are not attracted to same-sex genitals without any actual experience is also closed-minded”

Jesus wept. They clearly haven’t thought this through, because the logical conclusion of straight people trying harder & experiencing same sex genitals & not being so close-minded is that gay and lesbian people could be heterosexual if they just tried a bit harder too - thankfully an attitude long gone in most sections of society!

I am an adult human female, I.e. a woman. I have no idea what a 'real' woman is as there are only women, men and intersex sexes as far as I know.

The content of the article is horrifying enough, but then I scrolled down and read that the author is a teacher. I can only hope they're not an English teacher, because that is one of the most poorly written articles I've come across lately, and I've come across a lot.

then that is transphobic and closed minded.

No, you meant rape-minded there you go, no need to thank me

I don't want to try sex with anyone I do not feel safe with or attracted to, as that's then all about them, and discounting and dishonouring myself.

Is Jenny Murray party to this anti-women choice campaign?

I don't know what laid the foundations for my sense of what appeals, but I will not force myself to have sex with those I am not comfortable or happy with sexually, that's assisting rapist's mentality.

It's flat out coercion, I seriously worry for the DC at school and the messages of pressure/coercion and being shamed and bullied into giving away their bodies. Gross.

I don't want to try rape sex to see if I like it
I don't want to be porned by 2or more penises at the same time to see if I like it
Or all the other things I don't fancy and seem derogatory and harmful to women , objectivising and humiliating them

I am not going to force myself to do anything that puts me at risk emotionally, physically, psychologically, and talk of it should bring charges.

That person/teacher's position should now be untenable.

This rapey speech should have criminal consequences

Ereshkigal

Sorry I didn't mean to be so flippant. Dark sense of humour x

Looks like my sarcasm about the article didn't translate well

I was pleased to see that all but one of the comments slated the writer.

@TurboTeddy The woman with testicular cancer is just as valid as the pregnant man or the man having an abortion.

I hope they amend all the literature and ball checking campaigns to reflect TC is not a men's health issue. I am expecting the word men to be replaced with testicle holders in the same way abortion rights campaigns now refer to people with vaginas.

testicle holders

Are they like cup holders? Laughing like a hyena here.

But yes you're right men don't get reduced to their body parts in the name of inclusivity. I wonder why? Answers on a postcard please?

I am a real person, and I happen to have XX chromosomes and breasts and a vagina as well as feet and arms and an arse. I wouldn't know where to begin to try and define "real woman".

Funny how you have no trouble in defining and claiming "real person" about yourself though, isn't it? People are real but women aren't, right?

You just described what a real woman is, right there. Then you pretended you hadn't. Why would you do that?

The same way that not considering a same-sex relationship because you think you are not attracted to same-sex genitals without any actual experience is also closed-minded

I'm not sure where the quote above came from - was it in the article?

The quotes below however was made by a regular FWR, lesbian poster. I save the wit and wisdom of MN and also the "I can't believe what I've just read comments"

I find the 'I'm be straight even if it wasn't for the patriarchy' line, or I'm just not attracted to women (and I have no real interest in thinking about why that is) line a bit of a case of head in the sand

but I think it is very arrogant of straight women who claim to be feminist to not be willing to give a little consideration to why they are heterosexual, or at least wonder if it could have been otherwise

As for the assumption that all of us here presuppose that women share all of their experiences - I think that is a misunderstanding of the feminist argument

The misunderstanding as you call it comes from the fact that much feminist writing does not apply the theory outlined in your post. It becomes emotive and personal and ends up with these universal assumptions. Glosswitch's writing does that.

It's the consequence of that de Beauvoir line about not being born a woman but one becomes a woman (which frankly I think is little more than a sound bite but )

An example of feminists deciding who are "real women" , which is what that article is getting at, is posters on here posting that someone "must be a man"? "are you a man?" "no woman would say that" "you don't understand because you haven't had female socialisation" etc etc.

If the posters accused of this are men they have often either gone to considerable effort to concoct an online persona as a woman or alternatively they are women.

An example of feminists deciding who are "real women" , which is what that article is getting at, is posters on here posting that someone "must be a man"? "are you a man?" "no woman would say that" "you don't understand because you haven't had female socialisation" etc etc.

I alluded that a poster may have been male once (started a right shit storm!) because I naively presumed that people come to this 'Feminism chat' board because they are feminists who like to chat! How wrong I was Because this particular poster was writing what I judged to be anti feminist posts in an insulting, quite aggressive (not 'chatty') way, I thought they might be male. It was understandable to me given the context but I apologised non the less.

I've since learnt that some women, who don't consider themselves feminists, come to the Feminist chat board because they enjoy arguing.

I'd just like to remind you LassofFyvie that the assumption was that all of us claim this. As has been previously pointed out ad nauseam, we are not a hive mind.

Yes, some posters question the sex of others because they assume no woman would say this, that or the other.

Sometimes they're right, many times they're wrong, but it isn't all of us who do this, it isn't all of us who do it at any given moment and it certainly isn't feminists in general who do it. It's individual posters.

How about cis men? Just saying.

I mean did you accuse of being cis men? Just don't ever hear it mentioned. I find it odd.

I have seen more than one instance of that and yes drew the same conclusion.

I'd just like to remind youLassofFyviethat the assumption was thatallof us claim this. As has been previously pointed out ad nauseam, we are not a hive mind

Whose assumption are you referring to?

I didn't say all of you. I said "much feminist writing" and gave you particular examples.

(Did Willoughby really work at the Dorchester hotel?)

Horsewithnoregrets The article was confusingly written. That bit only makes sense if you know it refers to an interview Jenni Murray did with India Willoughby which Murray wrote about later in The Sunday Times and which was praised up thread by another poster:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/be-trans-be-proud-but-dont-call-yourself-a-real-woman-

You need a subscription or email address to read the full thing but here is a summary:

www.pressgazette.co.uk/transgender-journalist-india-willoughby-says-bbcs-jenni-murry-should-be-sacked-over-sunday-times-article/

Murray’s point that India Willoughby’s earlier life had not prepared her to understand what it would be like to need to pay for tights, manicures etc on a minimum wage salary seems reasonable to me. I believe India W also said that unshaven legs were ‘dirty’ and Murray pointed out that India Willoughby did not seem to appreciate that decisions about retaining or removing women’s body hair are influenced by societal expectations.

Feminists should...

Ho hum when have we heard that before

Yes men were always deeply respectful of older women before this handful of progs on the tv and radio And telling them that we are all suffering from something that makes us mentally ill for approximately ten years is a great step forward.

Why can't we have a balanced view, why not be aware that this can be a difficult time for some but a non event for others and for others a liberating time. Why does it always need to be extremes?

Wow, that article. I don’t think I’ve ever seen someone work so hard to miss the point. It’s like the point was dancing around in front of her waving a big sign saying “this is the point”, and she was just turning round in circles saying no, no, there must be something somewhere.

The idea of ‘real’ women in the way feminists such as Adichie and Murray appear to be interpreting it, assumes some shared understanding of what a ‘real’ women is, based on the cogency of a socially constructed gender binary. This is an inherent contradiction, as if, as Adichie claims ‘gender is not biology, gender is sociology’, then the construct of a ‘real’ woman in any sense of the word is redundant.

What contradiction? Gender is sociology, but woman is not gender, woman is matured female sex. Femininity is gender.

'Having had a negative penis related experience or not finding penises arousing are of course valid reasons to be hesitant,'

Even if you've been raped a straight no it's not allowed.

You can be hesitant. No more. Interestingly hesitant implies wasn't sure but did it in the end. So women irrespective of sexuality, experience , personal preference should never say no to dick, if they do they are bad people.

I think it's men who have always classified women into types, stereotypes isn't it. Men and sexists.

Lol at lass' wilful misinterpretation of that post and drawing equivalence between 'consider this' and 'you must service cock or you are a terrible person'

:D

Don't you every get bored of this? Needling feminists? You've been doing it for literally years. You're not a feminist you don't agree with feminism. You've said that yourself on here, years ago again. Maybe more recently who knows. What do you get it out of it? It can't be good for your blood pressure. Like me posting in an mra site or a pro trump site or something.