Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Are you a real woman?

116 replies

Gingerkittykat · 06/07/2019 13:06

article

Notice how the author was instructed to delete woman's hour because she didn't like something Jenny Murray said. Let's silence any dissenting voices that don't accept womanhood is a mere feeling inside.

(as an aside is woman's hour any good? I always associate Radio 4 with twee middle class Englishness and the odd time I listen when I am in the Highlands and can't get any other radio signal in the car I end up getting annoyed with it and switch off)

OP posts:
placemats · 06/07/2019 15:38

Zebra

Get with the 'modern world'. It's all much more complicated now that 'gender' has replaced the old fashioned and medical word 'sex'.

Gender is the new term now to define men and women.

Soon MN will be a relic of that old fashioned view that women were women.

Michelleoftheresistance · 06/07/2019 15:47

It's this simple.

What's the one, sole purpose of trying to fog/confuse and pseudo metaphysicalise the issue of what constitutes a woman?

It's so men can get to be women. That's it. That's all.

I see what's in that for men who want to be women. What's in it for women?

BatShite · 06/07/2019 15:57

Get with the 'modern world'. It's all much more complicated now that 'gender' has replaced the old fashioned and medical word 'sex'.

See something (else) that makes no sense to me at all, is TRA types will agree with GC people that gender and sex are different things. BUT, will insist on using gender for stuff thats segregated on sex. So changing rooms are segergated by sex. Sex is different to gender, sex is biological (agreed by all it seems). However, for some odd reason thats never explained, changing rooms should be segregated by gender (and internal thing that cannot be defined) not sex, despite it being sex segregated!

Aso, despite saying sex and gender are different things, they will constantly conflate the two and use gender INSTEAD of sex on purpose, to try and confuse issues.

Yes, sex and gender are different things. So, gender has no bearing whatsoever on sex.

ZebraLovesKnitting · 06/07/2019 16:14

Why give a shit about gender though? It just seems restrictive and regressive. And especially if it’s something you can change, and something that can’t be defined, or means different things to different people, then ultimately it doesn’t mean anything at all.

Sex is the only difference between men and women. Any other apparent differences are just as a consequence of sex.

This whole thing just boggles my mind.

thedevondumpling · 06/07/2019 16:21

The writer does have a bit of a point here. There is a tendency on here to make sweeping assumptions about negative aspects of being female which all women are assumed to have experienced. E.g how awful puberty is for a girl; not walking in the dark; being embarrassed by periods.

The latest "thing" is the menopause. We have programmes about it, articles about it, we need to teach children about it. I''ve been tempted to throw something at the TV and say, "Some people have a difficult menopause, some of us barely notice it, some are so relieved to never have to worry about periods again and some are somewhere in between all that." I'm glad mines over and I think they make it sound bloody terrifying.

thedevondumpling · 06/07/2019 16:22

Oh and to add to all that it gives people (men and some younger women) something to beat up older women about, a dismissive, "It's her age you know, take no notice of her."

BatShite · 06/07/2019 16:23

Why give a shit about gender though?

Quite. They are different things, gender is meaningless, especially for reasons of segregation, makes no sense to base anything on which stereotypes you follow or a 'feeling' in your head. Meanwhile, sex is a reality and it matters in a few areas of life. In the areas of life where sex matters, of course 'gender' is still as meaningless as ever.

I get that some people feel 'gender' is an important part of who they are. But..again that has no bearing at all in areas where sex matters. of course.

WhatsInAName19 · 06/07/2019 16:45

Such arguments are based on the misunderstanding that a CIS women’s lack of privilege, automatically correlates to an inherent feminist understanding. My trans partner has a much better grasp of feminist theory than many CIS women I know, but I doubt this would gain her acceptance into Murray or Adichie’s ‘real’ woman category

I doubt that the author of this horrendously badly written article would expect a white person with an excellent knowledge of black history to be welcomed into spaces, forums, programs etc created for or aimed at black people, purely because they have a sound theoretical knowledge base. And that’s because a black person does not need to know anything about black history for their race to be relevant to their life experiences or for their cultural background to inform their choices or affect the opportunities that are available to them. Knowing feminist theory does not make you a woman. And it doesn’t entitle you to invade women’s spaces.

There are so many straw men in this article it’s ridiculous. It’s extremely weak. It would be easy to copy and paste the entire article and demolish it, one sentence at a time with simple common sense counter arguments.

TruthOnTrial · 06/07/2019 16:59

Well, there's a clear difference between beliefs around women, that dont make you female or male, just beliefs, and then there's my woman's orgasm, g'spot, vulva, vagina, uterus with its painful contractions of very bloody periods and wonderful amazing baby bearing, and the multipurpose tits!

Other than that, I have comparable spatial skills, DIY abilities, I can drive a car safely for many years, multitask, study to high level, love babies and men (and their penises in context), I don't even mind long hair in men, or skirtish type things like kilts and wraps, pretty sexy.

But I feel very averse sexually to men claiming to actually change biological sex because they say so.

Even if I identified as being a man, I would know my biology was against me.

My biology is woman, there's no getting away from it, but it doesn't, hopefully, over-define me as a person/competencies.

RedToothBrush · 06/07/2019 17:08

If you are having to define what a 'real woman' is then by default you also have to define what a 'fake woman' is too.

Oh.

RedToothBrush · 06/07/2019 17:11

A woman is just a woman.

If you have to define the difference between a real and fake one.

MenuPlant · 06/07/2019 17:12

'Oh and to add to all that it gives people (men and some younger women) something to beat up older women about, a dismissive, "It's her age you know, take no notice of her.'

Yes men were always deeply respectful of older women before this handful of progs on the tv and radio 😁

placemats · 06/07/2019 17:24

multipurpose tits! Grin

My tits so far have not been able to vacuum or hang the washing out. I'm working on it!

CharlieParley · 06/07/2019 17:26

Badly written and a misrepresentation of Murray's point to boot. Talk about building up a strawman!

As for the assumption that all of us here presuppose that women share all of their experiences - I think that is a misunderstanding of the feminist argument. Which is that:

Not all women experience all of the things that arise from having a female body and from being born female in a male-dominated world, but all of those who experience these things are women.

That's why they are called women's experiences - because only women qua females have them.

Thankfully not all of us suffer male violence, but the vast majority of us fear it because we have either experienced it ourselves or know someone who has.

95 to 97% of us menstruate at some point during our lives and those who do not will have medical investigations to find out why. That makes menstruation pretty much a near universal female experience.

80% of us become mothers. No idea what percentage become carers, but I do know that women are four times as likely to adjust their working hours to take care of someone at home. Don't know what the overlap is between these groups, but it is highly likely that not all carers have children themselves.

So, given the amount of caring work women do - whether that is looking after children or parents or partners - the sacrifices women make to take care of others can also be considered a near universal experience.

And according to official statistics, 70% of us experience sexual harassment and 40% male sexual or physical violence (the extent of how these two groups overlap is again unknown). But 80% of serious sexual assaults and rapes go unreported, so who knows how high the number of affected women really is.

So while not all women experience male violence and not all who do experience the same and are effected to the same extent, again we can say that so many females experience unwanted attention and/or unwanted touching coming from males that it is a near universal experience, too.

And so on. What combination of these things an individual woman experiences we obviously can't know, but we can make a few reasonable assumptions as to how widespread they are and therefore how much of a problem.

That doesn't mean that all women's lives are effected to the same extent, and not all women are disadvantaged to the same extent but a large number of us are disadvantaged, discriminated against or oppressed at some point in our lives and we also know many other women who are effected even worse than us.

Nobody is forcing anybody into a sisterhood or assuming it must exist - I avoided all things with even a whiff of sisterhood for all of my life and didn't experience anything remotely like it until 17 months ago. Nobody cared. Not even me.

But I have realised that I cut myself off from a source of incredible strength and support and love. Yes, it's not all been kittens and roses, but what in life is? I've realised that I would rather have this sisterhood, warts and all, than not. And that's a decision we all have to - and can - make for ourselves.

TurboTeddy · 06/07/2019 17:27

Not sure if this is the right place for this or if I'll get deleted but some days I just think fuck it and it made me smile.....

Are you a real woman?
TurboTeddy · 06/07/2019 17:29

Just adding a hurried follow up to say under no circumstances do I think testicular cancer is amusing.

averylongtimeago · 06/07/2019 17:39

Oh ffs. How to miss the point.
Women are women because we are adult human females. We have xx chromosomes etc etc.
Men are men because they are adult human males, xy chromosomes etc etc
Any one with different chromosomes = intrasex.
we all know this, everyone knows this.
It's not rocket science, it just suits some to pretend they don't know.

I am a woman because of the above, not because I happen to be wearing a skirt and like knitting.

averylongtimeago · 06/07/2019 17:40

All this deliberate "misunderstanding" of what a woman is makes me SO angry.

MoreNiceCereal · 06/07/2019 17:54

Why are there no angst-ridden articles about what a real man is?

I think I know the answer.Hmm

MenuPlant · 06/07/2019 17:54

I'm not sure it is a misunderstanding so much as a difference of perspective.

Women are not seen as full people by men but often as 2d sterotypes. They have also always sought to define us. What we can and can't do, what we can wear. Where we can go. Which of us are 'real` women. They have always felt they owned our category and could say which of us were allowed in. So, this is natural to them and a shock when we say no.

Plenty of posts from tra types saging gc feminists /lesbians are not' real ' women this is no different to my sexist dad. Anyone who does not pander to males /male gaze is not a' real ' woman and is laughable /angering etc

Ereshkigal · 06/07/2019 18:05

Worth reading this, by the same author. Have wine handy.

medium.com/@transgressions/why-sexual-assault-is-not-an-excuse-for-transphobia-a-response-to-gender-critical-feminists-74a0d26b1f8a

TurboTeddy · 06/07/2019 18:22

Ereshkigal

I read the article but really there's not enough wine in the world to make any of it OK with me. The final "cotton ceiling" paragraph is basically a lesbian can't object to penis until she's tried it. Well they can fuck off and so can auto-correct today.

Can't quite believe that article isn't satire.

BatShite · 06/07/2019 18:23

Ugh ereshkigal

If the only reason a person doesn’t want to have sex with a trans woman is because they have a penis, and they have not previously had penis-related experiences to base their level of desire off, then that is transphobic and closed minded. The same way that not considering a same-sex relationship because you think you are not attracted to same-sex genitals without any actual experience is also closed-minded. Having had a negative penis related experience or not finding penises arousing are of course valid reasons to be hesitant, but there is a difference.

Hmm
Ereshkigal · 06/07/2019 18:26

I read the article but really there's not enough wine in the world to make any of it OK with me.

It isn't OK, I was horrified by it too. Sorry I didn't mean to be so flippant. Dark sense of humour x

WhatsInAName19 · 06/07/2019 18:33

*If the only reason a person doesn’t want to have sex with a trans woman is because they have a penis, and they have not previously had penis-related experiences to base their level of desire off, then that is transphobic and closed minded. The same way that not considering a same-sex relationship because you think you are not attracted to same-sex genitals without any actual experience is also closed-minded”

So is it closed minded to reject rough anal sex if you haven’t even tried it?

And is it closed minded to reject sex with this guy you’ve never met before because you haven’t even tried it?

The argument boils down to the fact that a person with a penis is entitled to have sex with a woman simply because they want to. Her wants and rights don’t come into it. When you really get to the bottom of it, it’s the same age-old bullshit.