Feminism. The Elephant in the Room.

[DJLippy]

I wondered what people think Feminism's Elephant in the Room was. What is the big taboo that we're not supposed to talk about?

I did not know there was an elephant. Is it furry like a mammoth, or an interesting colour?

not sure what your refering to?

Do pregnancy and related hormones make women more interested in home and child ?

what midge babe said

it's a very uncomfortable idea, and inconvenient if you think that the way men do things is the right way to do things

I want it to be multi-coloured patchwork, like Elmer.

But I'm not quite sure where you're coming from on this one, DJ. Do you have something in mind? Or do you want us to have a think and see if anything springs to our minds (in which case, much as I like many of your contributions to this board, this particular thread has a bit of a feel of those ones where some random comes on here and says "Contentious twaddle blah! DISCUSS!" as if we were a sixth form debating society). Hope that doesn't come across as mardy on my part... but I'd like a bit more of a steer on where you're trying to go with this one.

And what sort of feminism? For 3rd wave feminism it would pretty obviously be "Men". The whole thing calls itself feminism, but is built round pandering to men.

Liberal feminism (in the true sense of old fashioned liberal philosophy, not the new, bastardised version which is highly individualistic and probably closer to libertarianism): probably being frightened of biology, as if acknowledging that women run 100m slower than men will bring the whole edifice of feminism tumbling round our ears.

Radical feminism: great at shifting the Overton window, but I think its elephant is possibly that while great at critiquing power, because it consciously eschews playing within the patriarchal power structures that dominate society, it kind of opts out of being able to effect any genuine change. (In that sense, I think for all its flaws, liberal feminism probably gets more accomplished).

oh God please not ‘we are naturally programmed to want to do the hoovering and should just accept it’ again. I am so tired of this shit. These convos seem to be far more frequent over here these days. I have my suspicions as to why that is.

That the wage gap is mostly due to personal choices wrt work-life balance.

wish I was naturally programmed to want to do the hoovering,

my place is an absolute s***le atm

Not sure what the question means. The elephant in the room for me is that young women who call themselves feminists think men need to be protected from horrible old women.

I suppose lots of feminists talk the talk but don't walk the walk.

Is this anything to do with that wonderful article in The Times that castigates mothers for choosing to do absolutely everything around the house? Of course we secretly choose to grind ourselves down when the men actually want to do all the housework, run around after the kids etc .

MangoFeverDream

That the wage gap is mostly due to personal choices wrt work-life balance

Saw a really interesting thing on twitter today re that.

Mango (leaving to one side the fact that I actually fought and won an equal pay claim of hte old-fashioned equal pay for equal work kind - so I'm always a bit dubious of the current tendency to say "oh it's just that women make conscious choices) why is it women that make these choices?

A couple decides they want to have children... why is it that the woman's career is the one that ends up being balanced against finding time/flexibility for the children? Why that way round? I don't think it's a "nature" thing.

(In my case I wasn't a "natural" at child-rearing, and much of what I learned in the early days of my DS's life, I picked up from my DF, who is brilliant with babies and incredibly patient. Nor did I get a warm fuzzy glow from the crap bits... I can honestly say that for about the first 3 or 4 months, the only bit of the day I could rely on enjoying was bath time - 15 minutes out of 24 hours! So if I could have had a partner who'd have said "you know what, I want to share parental leave with me", I'd have embraced him, thrust DS into his willing arms, headed out the door to work, and come back when DS was beginning to do interesting stuff, at about 9 months plus. I had a bit of a blank patch ages 5 to 7 or 8 - no longer cute toddler doing something new and fascinating every day, but not yet old enough to have a rational conversation with - of course I "faked it till I made it", but again, that bit did not come naturally.)

I am just wondering what people think. It's not a shitpost I swear! I have been asking women for their thoughts and every feminist has a different elephant. I didn't want to steer the conversation which is why I kept it so brief!

we are naturally programmed to want to do the hoovering and should just accept it’ again. I am so tired of this shit.

Given the state of my house at present I can safely assure you, #notallwomen

Just from conversations with other women my (not young) age, how little women like, respect or trust men. They will love individual men, but see even in them the seeds of wilder misogyny. Maybe we’re just tired after years and years of it.

That lots of women don't understand feminism till it is too late.

The elephant in the room - something that feminists ought to address but don’t? I don’t think I have one. I mean it’s a bit weird that liberal men think they are currently at the forefront of it (and I do mean men that’s not a cute way of referring to trans women). Why we still have to push for equality? I’m in my 40s, I thought a lot of these battles were won in my twenties. Meh. I couldn’t really say I see an elephant....

I accept that men can behave more competive/aggressive/dangerously becuase of testosterone. That doesn’t make all men aggressive risk takers. Why can’t we even try and think to what extent female hormones affect our behaviour without being accused of being pink and blue brain supporters? biologically/ evolutionary wise it makes some sense so has a reasonable probability of being true. If it is proven true and feminist are seen to deny it then where doesn’t that leave feminism. Equal does not mean the same. Understanding and respecting our biological needs must cover all our biological needs, not just san bins and car safety belts.

That there may be some sex-linked behaviours (mostly around reproduction).

That provision of child care doesn't solve the 'problem' of mothers, and that many feminisms do not value the maternal.

Exploitation of working class women/women of color by other women.

That's about all, I reckon, from my perspective.

That the wage gap is mostly due to personal choices wrt work-life balance

How so?

A lot of working class women seem to feel they have more common cause with working class men than with their middle class sisters.

A lot of working class women seem to feel they have more common cause with working class men than with their middle class sisters.

See exploitation more generally of the working classes by others.

Feminism as practiced in, say, the academy, does have a big, bad, class blindspot, but that doesn't mean it's got problems greater than any other social movement.

But it isn't discussed much, except by socialist feminists.

Similarly, I've read many black women say "if you ask me which form of discrimination has the bigger impact on my life, sex discrimination or racial discrimination, I'd say race every time. And this is something white feminists just don't seem to get." (Disclaimer - I am white, and doing my best to summarise what I've seen women from ethnic minorities here and elsewhere say - apologies if anyone feels I'm misrepresenting this position).

A lot of working class women seem to feel they have more common cause with working class men than with their middle class sisters.

I feel like that sometimes (am working class) but not others. Depends what the issue is.

My elephant is that half of what passes for - self identifies as?! - feminism is actually dick pandering.