Feminism. The Elephant in the Room.

[DJLippy]

I wondered what people think Feminism's Elephant in the Room was. What is the big taboo that we're not supposed to talk about?

Yes @Lamaha but as a younger woman
I was definitely in the don't stay at home camp. It's only as I've got older and more experienced that I realise a lot of feminism's early goals, and my own thoughts, were actually a form of chauvinism. It was disrespecting traditionally female roles because women did them I think we should respect them more, and for that reason.

This links to the other post above That lots of women don't understand feminism till it is too late.

Which is why younger women tend to be liberal. I for one thought all the major battles were won when I was young and starry eyed.

It was disrespecting traditionally female roles because women did them I think we should respect them more, and for that reason

Nodding away like crazy here

My 'elephant' is the fact that being a feminist can make your life harder and so as a feminist and a mother of a daughter I have an internal struggle between bringing my DD up to recognise and speak out against stereotypes/misogyny and wanting her to be have friends/be happy/feel accepted.

For example- I firmly believe that being alert to misogyny and standing up to sexism will help her avoid being taken in by arsehole men but as a teen being the girl who questions the 'lads' and does not fawn over them will make her a target. Similarly if she is the only girl who 'chooses' not to wear impractical tight fitting/skimpy clothing she may be made fun of.

The fact that issues around motherhood have largely been ignored. The fact that for many women not being a feminist gives them an easier life than not being one. The fact that many women are actively anti feminist.

Yes I totally hear that @lovelygreenjumper

I have sons but worry I've made esp DS1 'soft' as he is constantly fretting about structural inequality and can't abide what is known as laddish (ie sexist and aggressive) behaviour. I wouldn't have done any different as he will become an excellent man but it's bloody hard work.

There are examples of these choices from throughout my family and personal life and yes, things would just be 'easier' if we chose to ignore things but here's to being difficult. Even if that means making it difficult for ourselves. ✊🏼✊🏼

The fact that men need to understand that they have to take an active role in changing structural inequality and that it will benefit them if they do. That even the best of men do things every day that reinforce the patriarchy.

It was disrespecting traditionally female roles because women did them I think we should respect them more, and for that reason.

This. I like a bit of matricentric feminism.

Vanessa Olorenshaw is good on this. Here's her book: www.amazon.co.uk/Liberating-Motherhood-Birthing-Purplestockings-Movement/dp/1910559199/?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

Also, women have historically tended to prefer "people" jobs over "things" jobs and this seems to be true even in the most sex equal Scandinavian societies. So the task of feminism should include ensuring that "people" professions are as highly valued by society as "things" professions.

I have sons but worry I've made esp DS1 'soft' as he is constantly fretting about structural inequality and can't abide what is known as laddish (ie sexist and aggressive) behaviour. I wouldn't have done any different as he will become an excellent man but it's bloody hard work.

Yesterday I went for a walk with my son, who is now coming to live with me, and my heart almost burst when he told me that he thinks that older women should be in charge of society because they have the wisdom, the experience, and the compassion to do things right. Also that female doctors are the best -- the ones he's had always take time and show genuine interest in the problem.

Oh, and other things I discovered about him: I always knew he puts the toilet seat down, but the other day he told me he sits to pee! And has done this since he was 15!!!! I was gobsmacked.

He also said he'd love to be a SAHM because it's the best job of all but he would always let the mother do it because she'd be better and is happy to be the breadwinner. Also, he cooks and cleans and does the laundry. And, being single now, is celibate until he finds the "right" woman.

Would women gravitate towards lower paid professions?

Isn't one of the issues that we don't value caring or maternal work/people enough? Why do we pay a woman who cares for the elderly so much less than a plumber for example. Because the technical minded/the labour intensive work is valued more than the emotionally-charged, sensitive work, done by carers etc.

@Lamaha no, I don't think so. SAHM vs WOHP is much more complex than that. Maternity leave, paternity leave, flexible working all means everyone's experience is unique. While I have no doubt there are many who had your experience, I had a WOHM and I feel no "irreparable damage" I never wished her to be a SAHM and have always been close to both parents, she is my inspiration an I always admired her for what she achieved both as a mother and in her career. It's too simplistic to blame women working.

Many women feel strongly that they want to be with their children as much as possible when they’re young. Many women don’t feel that compulsion

Surely the point of feminism should be to support both, without judgment or consigning them to poverty in old age, or financial reliance on their partners to the point that they can’t leave an abusive relationship

I agree with this, but it cannot be denied that we promote parenting behaviour in young girls more than young boys.

There are two elephants in the room, as far as I can see.
Firstly, some women freely and willingly choose to do things that can be seen as exploitative and disadvantageous to women as a class. Such as - offering sexual favours in return for career advancement, watching porn that probably involves other women being hurt, marrying for money, enjoying rough and painful sex, being choked, etc etc.
Secondly, women are capable of being cruel and evil, especially towards children or even weaker men. I feel this gets glossed over sometimes. There's always excuses found when it's a woman - oh she must have had PND or other MH issues, or she was being coerced by a man.

it cannot be denied that we promote parenting behaviour in young girls more than young boys

Agreed. And trying to highlight and address this is one of the very good things that all brands of feminism do. Wouldn’t the world be a better and safer place if men as a class were socialised to be more caring towards children and vulnerable people?

@avalanching I din't say the damage was "irreparable" -- i said it was NOT irreparable! But I had to work hard to repair it, and my mother and I never had anything near the closeness I have with my own daughter.
I know it is not as simple as that and I was lucky that I had my children in a EU country with excellent maternity provisions, allowing me to stay at home as long as I wanted.
And yes, this had economic consequences. For instance: my husband and I had exactly the same degree, and worked for exactly the same employer at exactly the same job. But I took a very long break and much of my work, when I did work, was part time. So even though we did exact same work, his salary increased and increased over the years whereas mine was stuck at a beginner's pay. When he went into retirement, his salary, and later his pension, was over about four times higher than mine .
But I don't resent it one bit. I chose to stay away and I enjoyed looking after my children. Not everything can be measured in pounds and euros. I actually think that I had the better deal.

I do believe maternity/paternity leave in the UK needs vast improvements. It should be a real choice for women so that they are not forced to go back to work just to make ends meet; they should not be penalised or denigrated for this choice. Where I lived, the tax system took it into account when only one parent went out to work, which made it possible to stay at home with only minimal financial consequences.

Cosmetics and ‘beauty’.

I’m puzzled by how otherwise rad-tending women go all choice feminism, and super defensive about it, when it comes to make-up.

I’m puzzled by how otherwise rad-tending women go all choice feminism, and super defensive about it, when it comes to make up.

How is it 'choice feminism' to want to wear make up? I'm OK with either men or women wearing make-up. Everyone in the whole world wants to look good, unless they want to make some kind of PA statement. Some women look fantastic without make-up, but most don't and want to look a bit better.

@Lamaha apologies for misquoting you. I agree there's more to be done, and no choice will be without compromise and for the foreseeable it seems to be the compromise falling on women (or them being blamed). But I have worked in environments that have enabled me to have a fantastic work life balance, I can't speak for my children of course and perhaps when they are older they will tell me they wished I stayed home, but my own experience with my mother in a less flexible environment was very positive so I suppose that gives me hope. The personality of the children probably play a part as well. That's why it's a complex issue and why for me couldn't be claimed as an elephant in the room for all women.

Going to work as a mother and paying other women a lower wage and child unfriendly hours to look after the children.

Big Elephant I'm trying to get my head around.

@Lamaha interesting to hear your family history and take on things and heartening to hear about your son!

Another elephant you mentioned is one that goes along with working mums but also has been long discussed: that women who go out to work often rely on other women to do the domestic work for them.

I always envied my friends who had SAHM who cooked meals for them and you could go there and be hugged and welcomed and could sit at the table and be offered delicious food, lovely curries and cake and home made ice-cream, and the mum would be clucking around like a mother hen!

I get what you mean, but your mother was who she was. If she had been a SAHM, she probably would not have been the rosy-cheeked mother hen, happily devoting herself to her family's needs. She would have been bored and frustrated, telling you your entire life what she has sacrificed for you.

My elephant is the fact that we still don’t seem able to say freely that men gaslight women constantly, all the time. There was an article not long ago where the author said ‘why can’t we say we hate men?’ and I agreed with her. Usual disclaimer about how nobody hates every individual man blah blah blah, but being seen as a man hater is more socially shocking than being seen as a woman hater. The reality is that men oppress women, generally they don’t support changing this because they benefit from it, women are under the cosh globally in every way imaginable, but if anyone dares to say, even offhand, ‘god I bloody hate men’, all of a sudden everyone is jumping to the defence of men in a way few jump to the defence of women who are being shown in actions how much they’re hated, not just exposed to a few angry words.

I’ve probably not articulated that very well, it’s been going round and round in my mind for a long time and I’ve never felt able to say it, for the same reasons contained within it.

Some women look fantastic without make-up, but most don't and want to look a bit better.

There’s a lot to unpack in that, isn’t there?!

And at what age is it appropriate to deliver the bad news to female people, do you think?

Do you want to come round and tell my DD or can she have another year or two?

Tbf, most men look better in make up too.