Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is twitter having a purge today?

134 replies

Novina · 28/06/2019 09:59

(Frequent lurker, occasional poster, new name.)

Just tried to find drEM and glosswitch. Neither account exists. Confused

OP posts:
ThatDoctorEM · 01/07/2019 17:09

I'm up to Stephen's words wont harm you, but they will harm me - it is batshit.

I notice how interchangeable it is with other trans arguments and the appeal to 'kindness'. Kindness to whom, as it sure isn't women and girls. It is very self-indulgent.

Its such a manipulative post. Do they get a master response which they can just cut and paste into?

Birdsfoottrefoil · 01/07/2019 17:18

Yes! “I am asking, if out of politeness that you refer to me as a trans man. It's only words , and it won't harm you, but to not do so might harm me” from a professor of Law who knows full well the power of words. That jumped out at me too EM

R0wantrees · 01/07/2019 17:19

I notice how interchangeable it is with other trans arguments and the appeal to 'kindness'. Kindness to whom, as it sure isn't women and girls. It is very self-indulgent.

Its such a manipulative post. Do they get a master response which they can just cut and paste into?

Patterned behaviour once recognised always stands out.

Manipulation definitely a theme in transactivism.

PencilsInSpace · 01/07/2019 18:09

Lovely to see you here DrEM, you are amazing Flowers

Flipmation · 01/07/2019 18:46

Hi DrEm I'm on Twitter and was so sorry to see you had deactivated. I don't post very much but just wanted you to know I agree with you 100%. Women and girls first, always. This is the only kindness feminist women need to show. I hope to see you back if and when you feel ready and well.Smile

KatnissEverbeen · 01/07/2019 19:34

Hi Dr Em! I love your work and commitment to women.
It does feel like the same shit all over again just worded slightly differently or said by someone else. The 2007 thread is eye-opening for what the true trans crew are doing now. They are gifting are rights away so they can boost their own profiles and feel nice.

R0wantrees · 01/07/2019 21:04

We must all question how we interact with gender (the system of oppression) – do we place male voices over women’s? Do we treat men and women differently in the name of kindness? Kindness to whom, because it is often not kindness to women and girls. I am of the opinion that if you do not centre women and girl’s rights or if you place male feelings above these, then you are actively working to damage and destroy what should be our shared goals.

This cannot be said better ^^

DrEm I've read and re-read your posts, your integrity & care for girls & women shines out. Flowers
Thank you & I do hope you have all you need for recovery.

Sparkyduchess · 01/07/2019 21:35

DrEm, so lovely to hear your voice here.

Your clarity has been eye opening for me many many times, and your concern for women so very evident always.

Please take care of yourself ❤️

terfsandwich · 01/07/2019 21:42

You have made really valuable analyses for the discombobulated left.
Many thanks from Australia Flowers

BickerinBrattle · 01/07/2019 22:23

Flowers too from the US for DrEm.

You do such a magnificent job drawing the threads together to show what women are now up against and have to fight.

I'm so sorry you became a target and hope you're finding the peace you need to recover.

HatpinWoman · 02/07/2019 01:49

I know it was mentioned here that a feminist is the joint leader of TR (that would be me), But that’s actually no longer the case.

twitter.com/hatpinwoman/status/1145855722976161794?s=21

I hope both Glosswitch and DrEM return to twitter soon. It’s lovely to have such brilliant among our feminist ranks.

ThatDoctorEM · 02/07/2019 06:47

Wowsers, Australia and America - isn't is fabulous to have a global sisterhood. This feels how like how the first fight for women's emancipation was global.

Hello Pencils, Flipmation and Terfswitch! Thank you for your lovely welcome.

HatpinWomen can you explain your comment on that twitter thread that
'There is so much work for all of us to do in order to balance the rights of women and trans people.

  • Why does this work fall to women and why should the rights of women be balanced with others? To me this suggests compromising women's rights to please mostly males, or am I misinterpreting? Where do you think this balance can be found?
HatpinWoman · 02/07/2019 12:45

Hi! @ThatDoctorEM. I hope that tags you, I’m not quite sure how to tag on here.

I absolutely don’t mean it like that. Thank you for asking for clarification though. I can see why you would think that’s what I meant.

I think the balance for me would look like respecting women’s boundaries, and our sex based rights, while simultaneous recognising trans people have distinct needs that society (not women) ought to fulfil. Does that make more sense?

ThatDoctorEM · 02/07/2019 17:32

Heya HatpinWomen, phew, it is much better to have more words here, thank you for the clarification. That does make more sense.

I'm not sure what trans people's distinct needs are though other than medical care if it is body dysmorphia similar to the other body dysmorphias- everyone has the need to dignity, self expression etc. What is it outside of the human rights act 1998, and not covered by the protected characteristic sex (that covers both female and male) which is missing? What do you think they are?

I think society should listen to radical feminists - wear what you want, be who you want, love who you want but sex is real and important. Men should accept males who break gender boundaries. For me, at no point should legislation be claiming that gender - a system of oppression which is built on hierarchical dominance of the female by the male - is natural, as in something that someone is born with. It is dangerous to codify this into law.

LangCleg · 02/07/2019 17:39

I think we need to have clarity on the word us in there is so much work for all of us to do.

If us is society, then yes! Of course!

If us is either women or feminists, then absolutely not!

And also that some of us may have other priorities and that's okay. My priorities are child protection and the groups of vulnerable women (lesbians, the imprisoned, those in shelters, those without financial resource to avoid consequences) most impacted by extremist genderism.

I do not feel any obligation to amend those priorities and do not wish to feel pressured to amend them.

KatnissEverbeen · 03/07/2019 00:20

Hatpinwoman what do you mean by trans people and how are they different from males and females?

HatpinWoman · 03/07/2019 18:44

Hi @ThatDoctorEM, I’m sorry I didn’t reply yesterday, it was a difficult day and I forgot to come and see if you’d replied. I think you’re right about medicine. Almost every trans person with serious dysphoria ive spoken to would love a way to not be in that kind of pain. I feel that the medical profession is abdicating its duty of care by offering an imperfect treatment, in medical transition, while failing to search for alternatives.

It’s also unethical to list any female person as Male and vice versa in
the way we are doing, so that in an emergency it may harm them. Like the transman who was listed as Male, so suffered the loss of a baby, in America.

I see it as a violation of trans people’s rights (although I don’t believe children are trans, just currently framed as such) to be giving untested, life altering medications to dysphoric minors. Any trans rights discussion ought to include ways to actually protect children who may or may not be going to grow up to transition, without medicalising them and rendering them infertile. The popular suppression of the reality that most of they will desist is such a harm.

Maybe rights are the wrong word for these sorts of issues? There are things that need to be sifted through by society though and some of which seem to fall within the remit of our ongoing discussions simply because so many of the ways they’re currently being handled impose on, or are being flagged up by, women. We are also one of the only groups trying to protect children, or trying to encourage people to recognise the harms of gender.

I think of the specific needs for trans people as things like rape and DV resources for them specifically. I spoke to a woman who ran a women’s shelter a few months ago who said that in addition to the problem that women’s needs were entirely compromised when males were in their shelters, it was actually beyond the scope of their organisation to help transwomen anyway, because the resources needed, particularly for mental health, were so incredibly different.

Separate places to go seems imperative for women and would help transwomen too (also transmen are far more likely to be abused in a variety of ways, than transwomen are, and they would need resources. They’re obviously female, but I can see why it might be distressing to both them and many women to share those kinds of services after an extreme trauma).

I agree that society should listen to radical feminists. Enshrining gender into law is such a harm. And I’d love a world in which men actually took responsibility and accepted males who transgressed gender boundaries, instead of demanding we see them as being women.

I’m so glad you’re writing on these issues on medium. A friend linked me to your series on Queer theory series recently and it was incredibly eye opening. It explained so many of the disturbing motives for the current movement, to me, that I was completely unaware of.

Hi @LangCleg I mean society. For some people in these discussions I know their focus is already on both, but neither women nor feminists should be expected to dilute the focus of fighting for women’s rights by also having to fight for the wellbeing of other groups. Unless any given individual wants to. My first concern is women and Children, but If there are ways to help trans people I’m personally in for that, too. And I’m not sure I trust men to represent the interests of women in such discussions. It definitely doesn’t make it our job though.

Hi @KatnissEverbeen I don’t think trans people are anything different to males or females, but those who take medications that give them the appearance of either being clearly trans or the secondary sex characteristics of the opposite sex are in an unusual boat, really. They’re still their sex, but they can confound our physical expectations of their sex, and because men are how they are, it puts the Male trans people at certain potential risks, and it puts the female trans people in an odd spot because if we have people in our spaces who look like men, that’s another way in which our safeguarding may be compromised, by normalising that, even if they, as females, belong there.

I’ve always said I don’t mind sharing spaces with transmen because things should be segregated by sex, but seeing Harrop say he would pretend to be a transman at a gym changing room does give me pause

Mermoose · 03/07/2019 19:04

HatpinWoman that's a really good breakdown of it.
Did you say you're not with transrational any more?

LangCleg · 03/07/2019 19:20

I mean society. For some people in these discussions I know their focus is already on both, but neither women nor feminists should be expected to dilute the focus of fighting for women’s rights by also having to fight for the wellbeing of other groups.

Thank you for clarifying!

HatpinWoman · 03/07/2019 21:02

@Mermoose. Yes, I did, I left TransRational this week and won’t be going back.

Mermoose · 03/07/2019 21:51

HatpinWoman Can you say why?

HatpinWoman · 03/07/2019 22:53

I don’t think there’s too much I can say about it. There are a lot of really good people who are part of TR, or have been part of TR at one point or another, who are genuine in their wish to help fight for women’s right to assert their own boundaries and to have their spaces. I’m sure they will go on doing so.

I don’t know if you saw Kinesis’s personal update on this, but one part really addressed me leaving specifically, and I would just say I was one of the people who bore the brunt of that.

Is twitter having a purge today?
Mermoose · 03/07/2019 23:28

Ah, ok. Well, good on you for giving it a go. I agree with everything you said in your longer post.

HatpinWoman · 03/07/2019 23:42

@Mermoose thank you ❤️

NotAtMyAge · 04/07/2019 14:37

And I've just heard that @PilgrimTucker has been suspended today.