Labour debate what's happening on Birmingham schools today

[Gone2far]

I'm on holiday, so don't get much access to the net. Can anyone tell me how the debate went?

It's here. Mainly talking about LGB relationships being taught about in schools.

hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2019-06-25/debates/8F61FF43-BA5E-401D-A3AD-3B742236F757/ParentalInvolvementInTeachingEqualityAct

It wasn't clear about why there had been a problem at those two particular schools, apart from there being some reluctance on the part of the schools to meet with the parents and show them the materials being used. There was a vague reference to the protests starting after some parents were concerned about things their (very young) children said after these lessons.

there being some reluctance on the part of the schools to meet with the parents and show them the materials being used

If this is true it’s a massive fucking deal. Schools should not hide the teaching materials they’re using from parents. How arrogant

Quote from Roger Godsiff, MP. One of the schools is in his constituency.

"In a Westminster Hall debate on 25 February, the hon. Member for Birmingham, Ladywood referred to the fact that parents were complaining that there had been no consultation whatever about how the nine protected characteristics were being imparted to children, and that children, some as young as four or five, were telling parents about what they allegedly had been taught in lessons. That caused the parents considerable concern. At the school in my constituency, a similar situation occurred. There was no consultation with parents. The headteacher made it plain that no consultation was going to take place and no collective meetings with parents were held. She said that she or her deputy would meet individual parents on a “one-to-one” basis to listen to their concerns, but when such meetings took place the same answer was always given—namely, that the school was only carrying out the Equality Act."

It wasn't clear about why there had been a problem at those two particular schools From what I saw on television report at the one school it was all started by an uncle of children at the school. He decided he didn't agree with what his sister's children were being taught and started the protests.

Mr Afzal, former chief prosecutor for the north-west of England, was asked to mediate the matter by the city council and parents.

He said that after meeting with parents over what he thought was a "fixable misunderstanding", he "watched some people on both sides try to hijack the dispute for their own ends".

"I am however most concerned by those manipulating the parents in this matter," he said in a video posted to his website.

"I have seen them walking around with materials and documents which they have pulled off the internet which they wrongly and maliciously say the school is teaching.

"I have examined the curriculum myself and there is no specific LGBT content, no reference to gay sex, none at all - there is reference, as there should be, to equality."

Mr Afzal sounds a more reliable source than someone's uncle who has decided what his niece or nephew should or shouldn't be taught.

From what I saw on television...

The TV reporting on this has been poor. The TV reports have all tried to frame the parents as homophobic bigots, but their placards said things like 'let children be children', implying that they felt that what their children were being taught wasn't age-appropriate. This seems to be what Roger Godsiff is saying after talking to the parents.

Refusing to discuss with parents when they have concerns about what their children are being taught is poor behaviour from the school.

Mr Afzal sounds a more reliable source than someone's uncle who has decided what his niece or nephew should or shouldn't be taught.

Does he? What about the MP who has talked to the parents and think they have a legitimate grievance?

I am always wary of trusting one single source for information.

Does he? What about the MP who has talked to the parents and think they have a legitimate grievance? What about other MPs like Jess Phillips and Jack Dromey? I also saw an Imam on Newsnight, can't remember his name, but he said he had seen the literature and there was nothing he was concerned about in it.

joyfullittlehippo, couldn't agree more.

I read (or partially read and now I've lost it) an article recently that the choice of school was deliberate, in order to frame objections to this programme (which contains a lot of Queer Theory) as homophobia and thus ease its passage into the curriculum.

Does anyone know anything more about that?

There is also a run in between sexual orientation and religious belief, both of which are protected characteristics. All Abrahamic faiths are, to one extent or another, homophobic.
How are these two stances going to be married up?

I read (or partially read and now I've lost it) an article recently that the choice of school was deliberate, in order to frame objections to this programme (which contains a lot of Queer Theory) as homophobia and thus ease its passage into the curriculum.

This article is interesting.
www.transgendertrend.com/no-outsiders-queering-primary-classroom/

I think there's another one which talks about the choice of school. I'll try and find it.

I've found the article where Andrew Moffat talks about targeting Muslim schools with queer theory.

schoolsweek.co.uk/andrew-moffat-assistant-head-parkfield-community-school/

He developed a resource called Challenging Homophobia in Schools, full of lesson plans and story books, such as two male penguins who are in love and adopt a chick. When teachers told him it was easy to preach from a predominantly white area – he should try doing it in a multi-cultural area – Moffat promptly got a job in Birmingham with majority Muslim and Afro-Carribean Christian parents. But not long after arriving, the governors said they did not want any of the materials in their school.

He was forced to leave that school after using his materials without consulting the parents, and moved to the 99% Muslim Parkfield school.

His first resources went into the bin, along with its focus on lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender rights, and he produced new resources based around both the Equality Act 2010, and the government’s emphasis on “British values” such as democracy and respect for others who are different, which he called ‘No Outsiders’.

The choice of name for this programme is interesting, because 'No Outsiders' was the name of a project that Moffat had been involved in, which was concerned with 'Interrogating Heteronormativity in Primary Schools', or 'Queering the Classroom'.

More on this thread.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3599564-Inclusive-education-is-non-negotiable

I've no idea if the choice of school was deliberate but the way it's played out means that any criticism of No Outsiders, how it came about and it's links to queer theory in the classroom is lost in all the noise.

Both sides have been weaponised by people with strong opposing agendas.

On a more meta level it's very difficult to see how this is a circle that can be squared because you have two groups, Muslim and LGBT, who are both ostensibly part of the (Labour) left wing yet are diametrically opposed.

Islam as a faith has never been tolerant of homosexuality and as far as I can tell has consistently been upfront about this. It feels like the LGBT lobby has rainbow papered over the cracks in recent times with a lot of platitudes about fighting Islamophobia and welcoming LGBT muslims but it doesn't really change the core issue when reality raises it's head in situations like this.

I'm not sure what can be done because legitimate questions should always be asked and answered about the basis of what is taught in schools but equally it's disturbing for that to turn into a wholesale attack on lesbian and gay people in the name of religion.

Both sides have been weaponised by people with strong opposing agendas.

Exactly this. I don't doubt that there are some people who are doing exactly as joyfullittlehippo says and taking advantage of this situation to spread their homophobic hatred.

But at the same time, the TRAs are taking advantage of the situation to smear anyone who objects to the teaching of queer theory to primary school children as a homophobic bigot.

Lost in this are the voices of parents of five-year-olds who are objecting to their children being taught that they can change sex, and who may have a legitimate point about the age-appropriateness of what their children are being taught. I say 'may have', because I don't know what materials are being used in these schools.

Thanks OldCrone - this is exactly what I was referring to. Brilliant analysis.

Lost in this are the voices of parents of five-year-olds

It felt like that was what Roger Godsiff was trying to get across, but to their shame none of his fellow MPs were listening in their haste to virtue signal

Islam as a faith has never been tolerant of homosexuality and as far as I can tell has consistently been upfront about this. It feels like the LGBT lobby has rainbow papered over the cracks in recent times with a lot of platitudes about fighting Islamophobia and welcoming LGBT muslims but it doesn't really change the core issue when reality raises it's head in situations like this.

I think papering over the cracks is a good description. The real gap here I think is that while schools can teach about factual, age appropriate sexual information, or laws and how to be good neighbours, parents are supposed to be the ones who ultimately teach their kids about sexual ethics.

This is an example where the more conservative viewpoint is out of step with what the schools want, but it could just as easily be the other way round.
You can't have secular schools without them being, well, secular. That doesn't mean whatever the majority view in society is can be taught as right, even if its not a religiously defined set of beliefs.

I'm a Christian and I wouldn't want any young child of mine to be taught that they can be born into the wrong body. Setting them up for a lifetime of medical intervention.
Unfortunately, virtue- signalling thickos like Jess Phillips don't get that.
This issue has not been discussed. Just decided, and I think it's shameful how the media and certain mp's are framing it as homophobia.

The Imam on Newsnight didn't describe it like that, he said it was things like if some children had one mum it was OK, if another child had two mums that was OK as well and so was one mum and one dad. He said it wasn't anything other than we should all be accepting. He didn't mention anything about people being born in the wrong body. Someone, I don't think it was him, said the sort of things people were complaining about were at secondary level not primary.

Mind you why let the truth get in the way of a good old moan.

I’ve seen the no outsiders lesson materials recommended in my county

I can assure you that they address the issues facing gender questioning children in a way that I find completely unacceptable

And these materials are for primary

Mind you why let the truth get in the way of a good old moan.

Did you read Moffat’s paper on Queering the Classroom? What part of breaking down boundaries and bringing teachers’ own ‘desires’ into the classroom doesn’t strike you as concerning?

Bernard do you have any of the materials, are you able to share them?