Liberated from what?

[Trebe]

OK I'm gonna try and approach this topic in as delicate a way as possible as the last thread I started did not go down well.

However within that thread there was a question I asked when someone said 'we want to be liberated', that question was, liberated from what?

Now before that pisses anyone off, I'm not saying women have nothing to be liberated from. I'm actually in the camp of thought that says there are things every people and person need liberating from.

The question however stands in my mind as I would like to know what feminist activists feel they need liberating from?

I think I would like to figure out what it is feminists feel is actively confining and liberating women alone. What is it you wish to be liberated from and how will that happen?

I'll even start it off. I believe that the liberation from the natural reproductive cycle is paramount to not just the liberation from that cycle but from poverty. I believe that effective contraception that a woman gets to choose to use has liberated countless people.

I think if more women, especially in religious countries, were to have access to effective contraception the world would be a better place for all.

Sorry for starting the same thread twice but I put it in the wrong area, if a mod could delete the other thread it would be greatly appreciated.

If you're seeing an enemy in me, you must be seeing phantom enemies everywhere. That's the main thing I'll take from this thread

Awww. You seem Very cross. Why don’t you smile? You’d be so much prettier if you smiled.

Lol, seeing fantom enemies everywhere. I wish I’d known that last night when that group of lads were following me and my DP (female) home in the dark, whistling and shouting and speeding up to catch us up. God if I’d have known they were only fantom enemies I wouldn’t have had to be so worried.

So yeah, male violence is what I’d like to be liberated from. I’m sure those lads only wanted to chat, you know, but it’s not been my experience in the past, so...

But desperate to have the last word.

I think we're seeing an idiot in you Trebe. Not meaning to be rude of course.

I am tickled, though - for lurkers who might be pondering why Herr Flick got such short shrift here, remember that you are under no obligation whatsoever to provide conversation for men, however much they protest they have good intentions and just want to learn, yada yada yada.

FWR is packed to the gunnels with intelligent women who have expended much time and effort explaining the machinations of a system stacked against women to other women. If a man was truly curious about these issues, he would display a passing familiarity with humility and not barge in with HIS VERY OWN THREAD asking HIS VERY IMPORTANT QUERY because HE prefers it when women expend further effort explaining feminism to a man who is already convinced he does more for feminism than the women here.

To which we say ...

Fuck that.

Wow, back I came, eager to see if the OP had engaged in good faith with my response, only to find that they had misunderstood, misrepresented, and caricatured almost every single word of it. I mean, how do you read someone saying "I think for me it's the knowledge that our rights are on loan" and interpret that in a way that prompts you to ask "What rights do you think I have as a general man that you don't?" I mean, did you even read what I wrote? Baffling. How do some people manage to get themselves dressed in the morning? Oh well, at least now I can crack back on with my evening rather than wasting my time in a debate with an MRA. Thanks for letting that mask slip nice and quickly OP.

The patriarchy hun x

It’s interesting isnt it, whatis I’d love to know what it feel s like not to be prey. To not even have it on your radar that it happens.

I must admit, many years ago when I first visited FWR I did think ”how rude‘ at threads like these. The women just weren’t very nice.

Then I read some more, and some more again. And my eyes were opened. And I looked all the many many instances in my own life where a man did exactly as floral and others describe. And got cross. And stopped being fucking nice.

The truth will set you free. But first it will piss you off.

I'll even start it off. I believe that the liberation from the natural reproductive cycle is paramount to not just the liberation from that cycle but from poverty. I believe that effective contraception that a woman gets to choose to use has liberated countless people

There is much to celebrate in the reproductive cycle. And realising that can be liberating in itself. There can be great power and dignity in the female 'role'. As embodied human beings, our biology is still, to a large extent, our destiny. There is no escaping that. I personally don't see some futuristic, sexless, technological future to be that desirable at all.

As a 'planet' we humans need to move back towards the earth and live more in harmony with it.

I'd say that what we all want to be free from is unnecessarily constraining and inhibiting gender stereotypes.

Even though there are two sexes - we are all still individual human beings, with our own particular talents, skills and aptitudes.

In more 'primitive' societies people are very much confined to gendered roles, based o their biology alone - but that is impoverishing not just for those individuals, but for society as a whole.

Reveal, it's an education, isn't it? I consider FWR to have been a really important influence on my confidence levels in general, and that epiphany that I am within my rights to say a very blunt "No." to a man making a demand is definitely one of my favourite parts of the Radicalization Portal.

I used to be stuck in that part Female socialized/part polite English hell of never knowing how to deal with charming patter salesmen, on the street, on the phone, at the door. I can genuinely thank FWR for my ability, much admired and emulated by my daughters and their friends now, of saying a very assertive "No!" even if the buggers do make eye contact and ask me if I care about abandoned puppies.

Liberation? Knowing that you can say 'No' and move right along with your day is one of the most freeing things.

DanceLikeEmmaGoldman - Cheers! Yes Maya Forstater is brilliant.

WOMEN, EXPLAIN!

Well, this that, other.

NO WOMAN, NOT TRUE. PLUS MEN SUFFER ALSO.

Well, why bother asking if yo....

SHUSH WOMAN I AM TRYING TO UNDERSTAND BUT YOU ARE ALL JUST BEING MEAN.

Is it wrong that I am beginning to feel fond of this one?

it's stockholm syndrome. fight it

I mean it's very instructive getting a live action demonstration of whiny male entitlement, but it's not what I come here for and I can see that sort of behaviour pretty much anywhere, so not really necessary here.

You lost me at "attacking men", 2nd post.

But you've left. Good.

Has trebe done a name change

Liberal feminism is something to be liberated from.

Oh, has he gone?

Oh, has he gone?

Never mind. Misogynists are like buses; there’ll be another one along shortly.

I don't particularly want to get into the wage gap problem as its more mythical than anything else

Errr... no, it isn't.

The "gender pay gap" describes the disparity in the lifetime earnings of educationally-comparable females compared to males, and is a phenomenon that primarily affects mothers, who have experienced periods of low to no earning in order to provide childcare.

It is not specifically about the claim that women get paid less than men for the same job, though that aspect also falls into the phenomenon.

One could be, however, forgiven for misunderstanding this as the msm constantly misrepresents the issue as being solely about, say, female BBC journalists being paid less than their male counterparts.

So good, so accurate, it bears repeating.

I am tickled, though - for lurkers who might be pondering why Herr Flick got such short shrift here, remember that you are under no obligation whatsoever to provide conversation for men, however much they protest they have good intentions and just want to learn, yada yada yada.

FWR is packed to the gunnels with intelligent women who have expended much time and effort explaining the machinations of a system stacked against women to other women. If a man was truly curious about these issues, he would display a passing familiarity with humility and not barge in with HIS VERY OWN THREAD asking HIS VERY IMPORTANT QUERY because HE prefers it when women expend further effort explaining feminism to a man who is already convinced he does more for feminism than the women here.

To which we say ...

Fuck that.

Floral, Once again, express is it beautifully.

And, for me, the other standout part, is how frequently this happens, and how every time it does the person thinks they are the first one to say it/ask it/express it that way.

I wonder if they truly believe that because they are not talking about , the attention seeking demand for women's time and effort, does not come across as wholly egocentric and entitled?

Because it's so utterly predictable, it's a little scary.

But, they never want anything explained to them, do they?
They think they come here to show feminists wrong.

Exactly. They come here to misogynise all over women. And then complain that women can't be arsed to let them.

I don't particularly want to get into the wage gap problem as its more mythical than anything else. Back in the day it was truer. I'm not saying it holds no truth but I think most people know how that statistic is used.

Well not so mythical for me, I am afraid. Here I am, a straight As, high achiever, Masters educated female ‘sat’ at home looking after my three children because my husband wouldn’t. Of course I could go to work full-time and forge a career I am capable of and deserve, but sadly it will mean compromising my children’s well-being as I have got no family support. I resent being reduced to a non-entity for the wider society and earning a pittance for my very part-time work that my family commitments will allow.

Take my DH, no degree, comfortably walked into an easy, well-paid role. Having three children has not in any way affected his hours, his ability to earn or go for promotion. Indeed, it added to his image as a well-respected father of three, a provider etc.

If I were to go back to work at some point, I will be thrown right back to the bottom of the ladder and will be competing with young, eager and childless 20-somethings. I will likely never reach my true earning potential as a result of childbearing, will have a reduced pension provision and will be hundreds of thousands of pounds poorer over my lifetime due to a very real opportunity cost.

So the gender pay gap may not be real to you, but it is very much so to me. All because men do not step up and do their fair share. And I am not prepared to throw my children under the bus to prove my feminist point.

Yep, they don’t need anything explained, because they have already figured it all out. At some level they may be vaguely aware that feminists have spent a long time thinking about and discussing these issues, but there is no comprehension there that this body of thought may be worth actually engaging with.

It’s always “I’m here to explain to you that actually, women choose to do the majority of care for young children and elderly parents, so that’s that issue all sorted out for you. Wait, why aren’t you gathered adoringly round my feet as I dispense wisdom? You’ll never get people on-side by laughing at me!”