Liberated from what?

[Trebe]

OK I'm gonna try and approach this topic in as delicate a way as possible as the last thread I started did not go down well.

However within that thread there was a question I asked when someone said 'we want to be liberated', that question was, liberated from what?

Now before that pisses anyone off, I'm not saying women have nothing to be liberated from. I'm actually in the camp of thought that says there are things every people and person need liberating from.

The question however stands in my mind as I would like to know what feminist activists feel they need liberating from?

I think I would like to figure out what it is feminists feel is actively confining and liberating women alone. What is it you wish to be liberated from and how will that happen?

I'll even start it off. I believe that the liberation from the natural reproductive cycle is paramount to not just the liberation from that cycle but from poverty. I believe that effective contraception that a woman gets to choose to use has liberated countless people.

I think if more women, especially in religious countries, were to have access to effective contraception the world would be a better place for all.

Sorry for starting the same thread twice but I put it in the wrong area, if a mod could delete the other thread it would be greatly appreciated.

@FamilyOfAliens yeh me too lol.

I just think critical thinking talking with the better educated about the ideas they have is much more enlightening than just reading and finding out the counter-argument.
Probably every idea is already here on fwr, if you cant be arsed to read any part of it and come back with a well thought out contradiction, I cant be arsed to chat with you.
Awaiting the frigid bitch comments

Off topic but does anyone have to hand thebewilderness rules of mysoginy? TIA

@Treefloof why are you expecting a frigid bitch comment?

I’d first define what liberty is first otherwise it may go the way of the other thread.

Maybe this thread was a bad idea. Who'd have thought discussion on a discussion forum would be so controversial.

@Dervel I'm not sure how others are defining liberation, that's one of the reasons for the discussion.

as its more mythical than anything else

BINGO

Can I have the chufty badge please?

Oh dear oh dear. You will be no fun after all

. It’s not it much mythical dearest. It is nuanced and complicated by the fact that women are expected ( culture) to take the hit but it’s bloody real. How many heads of ftse100 companies are female?

1st rule of misogyny: Women are responsible for what men do.
2nd rule of misogyny: Women saying no to men is a hate crime.
3rd rule of misogyny: Women speaking for themselves are exclusionary and selfish.
4th rule of misogyny: Women's opinions are violence against men thus male violence against women is justified.
5th rule of misogyny: WATM! Women and Feminism must be useful to men or they are worthless.
6th rule of misogyny: Women who go around being female AT men by menstruating and breast feeding babies deserve punishment.
7th rule of misogyny: Women should always be grateful to men for everything.
8th rule of misogyny: Men are whatever men say they are and women are whatever men say they are.
9th rule of misogyny: Men always know the "real reasons" for everything women do and say.
10th rule of misogyny: The worst thing about male violence is that it males men look bad.
11th rule of misogyny: Basic pattern recognition skills are cruel and evil when they hurt men's feelings.
12th rule of misogyny: whatever women suffer from, men suffer from more.
13th rule of misogyny: Women are not oppressed! Rape and catcalling and objectification are all compliments, not oppression.
14th rule of misogyny: Women have all the rights they need: The right to remain silent.

Ta very much Family useful stuff.

@Familyofaliens Even under that ridiculous set of rules I don't think I qualify,

and though it's not what I intended for this thread, I'm happy to defend the fact that i'm not a misogynist. I could probably defend that I've done more for women rights than 50% of the people on here if you wanted.

@Trebe you started the discussion so it would be helpful if you included what your thought liberty meant. It really does save a lot of tedious back and forthing where people’s points are sailing over one another’s heads as they haven’t started conceptually from the same place.

I rather think I’d like to be liberated from men expecting me to do their thinking for them.

There is an entire body of feminist thought written by women of ferocious intellect.

I commend to you Kate Millett; Germaine Greer; Andrea Dworkin; Simone de Beauvoir; Rebecca Solnit; bell hooks; Audre Lorde; Susan Faludi; Germaine Bunbury amongst many others.

Tell you what. Pop off for a few days, have a read of The Female Eunuch and come back with a list of discussion points and see what happens.

Who'd have thought discussion on a discussion forum would be so controversial

It’s the tone.

Read some,other threads started by women who are learning about feminism. They’re done some reading and are asking for clarification on specific points.

Not a problem

But there’s a certain type of male visitor who lands here and demands that women explain and justify feminism to them. All of feminism. Then then, when we explain a certain part of OUR OWN lived experience, tells us we are wrong. And that’s just fucking rude.

@Dervel you're right I did start the discussion but it came from someone saying it to me and it didn't make a great deal of sense to me that it would be a feminist issue.

Maybe I should be more specific in what I'm asking, what is it that women exclusively need that is being held back from them or is holding them back, simply because they are women. I'm trying to figure out if people are complaining about an issue we should all be complaining about together.

I've been a victim of male violence, as have many men. I'm lucky to never have been sexually assaulted by a man, but many have.

If people were saying I think we need liberation from the people in power, it would be easier to get behind from a leftist viewpoint.

I want to figure out if it's hatred of men or if the system is unfair. Whilst taking into account that the systems' unfairness can be fairly distributed.

Liberty for me seems impossible as long as I live in a world where male is the default for Everything. Even the word 'woman' is derived from 'man with a womb'.

I could probably defend that I've done more for women rights than 50% of the people on here if you wanted

Behold! Feminists. I’ve come to check you are feministische properly. And anyway I’m a better feminist than you’ll ever be.

(Even though the subtleties of the pay gap are beyond my understanding)

I think you'd be happier focusing on your simultaneous posts on the 'dumb things to say during sex' thread

@Xenobio one useful way to find out what is best to read about is through discussion.

Also when did I tell you that you are wrong about your own experiences?

*feministing

Bizarre autocorrect fail

Yeh @Xenobio you still haven't explained or defended the accusation i'm a misogynist. Even under those set of guidelines, I think I still can get through it.

Maybe not, it is a ridiculous list.

I'm happy to defend the fact that i'm not a misogynist. I could probably defend that I've done more for women rights than 50% of the people on here if you wanted.

Where do you think it gets your cause calling the person of anyonewho expresses a thought or has a question a misogynist? Do you think it helps your cause.