A woman with mental age of 9 forced to have abortion

[Gingerkittykat]

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/woman-abortion-court-of-protection-ruling-mentally-ill-a8970121.html?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR0LrwkWGx-4dJtABJSuHLlzyLs7IArhgM_CQVisVjx4Asf3YoCeW4aKk1Y#Echobox=1561203238

I understand that this woman will not be able to care for a baby but cannot believe forcing her to have an abortion under any circumstances is appropriate, especially since she is already 22 weeks pregnant.

I am 100% pro choice, but this woman is having her choice taken away from her.

@feministcat off topic but that's interesting. The people I know that have had to have late abortions because of fetal abnormalities have had to give birth and that has really traumatised them. I wonder if there were medical reasons for this or if it's just what's generally done in the UK.

Saying that a fetus of 22 weeks isn't a baby is a bit of a legal fiction really. It is only a couple of weeks away from viability.

Viability does not = able to live without medical care (if not in utero) or free from significant health risks if born that early. Viability has changed a lot over decades, so why do we use it? 2-3 decades ago you would have been okay if the “rule” was 30 weeks instead?

Abortion this late is something that many women would chose not to do. It might be legal (correctly so) but by this point it's a very ambiguous decision and not something a court should be deciding on someone's behalf.

This is concerning a vulnerable adult who can’t make decisions for herself so someone has to decide on “her behalf”.

If they needed to step in because her health was at risk from the pregnancy that would be different.

If you read the portions of the decision you would know that there are suggestions this woman has other health issues such as a mood disorder which may mean she needs to take medication etc that may not be compatible with pregnancy, etc.

Why does the grandmother matter? Because it's her daughter and grandchild we are talking about.

And not her body. It’s also not her grandchild, only the potential to be. It is clear that if she wants to keep this baby the vulnerable woman may need to find another home. How is that caring for her daughter?

Forced late abortion seems totally barbaric to me.

Barbaric to who in these circumstances?

*@Itwouldtakemuchmorethanthis
*
She had sex, people do.

Ah see there is feminist analysis disagreeing with this. One group of people have sex and always walk away unscathed. Then there's another group of people, a second group, that suffer dire repercussions. I'm talking about the consequences for women compared to those for men.

And why this idea that sex, well let's call it intercourse- (because intercourse is the problem, not sex per se, ) is about enjoyment needs to be examined. It's enjoyable for men but there is no risk to their bodies. It's enjoyable to women but for them the consequences are severe.

One feminist question is: is the enjoyment you may get from the specific sexual act of intercourse worth the consequences? Arguably not.

So What I don't understand is if this woman was definitely unable to mother a child because of some mental incapacity and people around her knew this, why was she having intercourse?

This notion in society that intercourse is just a bit of fun doesn't work for women

GrapefruitsAreNotTheOnlyFruit

Could be differences in medical care and practice, but also costs concerns (more expensive to do surgery than a birth). May also be dependent on whether the parents want to have time with the baby after born (some fetuses with health issues incompatible for life may still live a short period of time after an induced birth and the parents may want that time to hold them.).

She could have a surgical abortion (and therefore be asleep)
www.bpas.org/abortion-care/abortion-treatments/surgical-abortion/dilatation-and-evacuation/

"The NHS Trust which oversees the woman’s care had asked the court to proceed with an abortion"

Some care the NHS has offered her, allowing a man to get her pregnant and now forcing her to have an abortion. This is a hideous story.

If you think a 22w+ fetus isn't a baby because it hasnt breathed air yet... I just🤦🏻‍♀️

I didn't express an opinion on this either way.

It would be a preemie if born, of course it matters.

It doesn't matter in the sense that the case was not about the baby itself or it's welfare.
It was only about the mother and her welfare. That's what was argued and considered in court. What shit avenue would be best for the woman. The baby was not a consideration. It did not matter. Neither should it.

A different court and proceeding would have been required if the baby was born.

If the mother wanted the baby and the grandmother didn't would you still be demanding rights for the grandmother?

If the mother wanted an abortion and the court ruled against it would you still be outraged?

The idea that the wishes of the grandmother should be taken into consideration is terrifying. If you’re looking for dangerous precedents, there’s one right there.

Thx for the info on REC volunteering...

, I mean, why is intercourse so normalized in society, when the consequences for women are so awful

Some care the NHS has offered her, allowing a man to get her pregnant

How did the NHS "allow a man to get her pregnant"?

@feministcat viability is very important because its the point at which a woman and her baby become potentially separable.

No I don't agree that a court should be making decisions on behalf of an adult with learning difficulties rather than their next of kin. I think it is highly likely that a relative who loves and cares about them will make much better decisions than a court. Unless of course the relative has shown themselves incapable in which case they should have those rights removed.

Just like parents usually manage to do better for their children than the care system would.

I think I lack everyone else's confidence here that courts are likely to make good decisions in these cases.

Every other time the state starts trying to look after people it seems to go pretty wrong.

Unless of course the relative has shown themselves incapable...

WHICH IS WHY THE COURT OF PROTECTION EXISTS

Sorry for yelling, but this is exactly what the court is for. This parent has clearly shown to the medics dealing with the young woman, that she's not making decisions in the best interests of her daughter.

It would be great if every parent was loving and caring, but lots aren't. Lots are controlling, feckless or otherwise unwilling to get past their own beliefs and needs.

“Every other time the state starts trying to look after people it seems to go pretty wrong”

Really? The courts are looking after people all day. Very occasionally it goes wrong- or goes controversial and it hosts the press.

I think I lack everyone else's confidence here that courts are likely to make good decisions in these cases.

As we will never know the full and confidential details of ANY case in the Court of protection 9which is as it should be), I don't think any of us can say what should have been decided. Cases that got to that court very rarely have a 'perfect' option. That's how they get that far.

But if you read the judgements of any case (and I've read a few) the care, thought, and objective yet empathetic language, points to a highly intellingent and experienced person doing the best they can for the vulnerable person in front of them. It must be a really difficult job.

You didn’t answer how you adjust viability through time, or how you equate potentially separable to actually likely to live free of medical complications. This isn’t a decision about an abortion versus letting her stay pregnant two more weeks. It’s about abortion or carrying to term - 18-20 more weeks, and then giving birth.

Just like parents usually manage to do better for their children than the care system would.

Sure. “Usually”. Then they also often don’t, which is why we have child welfare systems to take care of children who are abused and neglected by their parents.

Then there are these parents who apparently could not do better:

www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/lethbridge-meningitis-trial-sentence-parents-toddler-died-1.3650653

(The Stephan’s are currently on trial again after a trial was reordered).

Or these ones:

www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/clark-sentencing-jennifer-jeromie-toddler-1.5163071

Or this one:

calgary.ctvnews.ca/calgary-woman-convicted-in-death-of-son-granted-full-parole-1.4344002

And I just picked recent local cases!

A termination is not medical care. If she needed an amputation she couldn't consent to, that would be one thing. If she was going to die if she continues the pregnancy, that would be another. Forcing her to have a termination, which as much as possible to her understanding, she does not want, because she won't be a good mother is barbaric.

Saying ‘if this actually was a 9 yo’ is ridiculous as there’s a HUGE physical aspect to that. A 9 year old isn’t physically developed in the way a grown woman is and carry a full term pregnancy/ labour could cause untold damage.

Emotionally and psychologically this woman may be effectively 9 yo so the implications of that should be considered, but physically she’s capable of growing/ birthing a baby like any other fully developed woman.

saraclara

YY!

, I mean, why is intercourse so normalized in society, when the consequences for women are so awful

Adults with moderate intellectual disabilities still have sexual urges though. True, they are vulnerable and at greater risk of coercion but it’s patronising to them to infer that it can’t be consensual.

The consequences being “awful” are part of the wider issues for their careers to consider. For many parents that included organising long-term contraception for their daughters.

Do you think adult women who are intellectually disabled should be banned from having sex?

because she won't be a good mother is barbaric.

Except that is not the basis for the court’s decision.

Doesn't anyone else think though that abortion at 22 weeks is a pretty extreme decision?

Most women who have either an abortion or a miscarriage at this stage of pregnancy will be extremely upset. And if it's something you have been forced to do against your will....

Well I cant understand why carrying the pregnancy to term and the baby being adopted would be worse.

That poor woman will know her baby has been killed. And however uncertain her understanding she will think of it as a baby rather than a fetus.

We're talking about what is probably now a viable fetus at time of writing, not a bunch of cells and it deserves some consideration too at this point.

A 22 week old foetus isn't viable, and it may well have been aborted by now.

Forcing her to have a termination, which as much as possible to her understanding, she does not want, because she won't be a good mother is barbaric.

And forcing her to give up her baby isn't?
Forcing her out of her home so her mother can look after the baby isn't?

She's never going to get to be a mother good or otherwise. It was not an option and it was the only thing she wanted. Baby or not she would still be forced in a situation she did not want.

Why can't people understand that?