A woman with mental age of 9 forced to have abortion

[Gingerkittykat]

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/woman-abortion-court-of-protection-ruling-mentally-ill-a8970121.html?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR0LrwkWGx-4dJtABJSuHLlzyLs7IArhgM_CQVisVjx4Asf3YoCeW4aKk1Y#Echobox=1561203238

I understand that this woman will not be able to care for a baby but cannot believe forcing her to have an abortion under any circumstances is appropriate, especially since she is already 22 weeks pregnant.

I am 100% pro choice, but this woman is having her choice taken away from her.

FFS, Pouncer, no, we don't insist on termination for all those homeless women, drug addicts, etc because they have capacity. They are capable of making a decision, and are permitted to do so even when it's a bad decision.

Why does that mean we should make a bad decision for someone who cannot do so because she lacks capacity?

What if after the termination procedure the mother's mental state declines to such an extent that she's hospitalised due to a nervous breakdown as a direct result of said procedure, or god forbid harms herself, would the termination still be said to have been the right choice?

As is any decision or possible outcome in relation to her case, this is entirely assumption, although not unlikely given her vague description of a mood disorder.

It's entirely possible that this could push an already very vulnerable woman over the edge.

Still nobody addressing the question of who is the man who is responsible for impregnating this woman, who is now the subject of a judge's decision.

Why is he just able to walk away from what he has done - I.e. impregnated a woman and then just walked away. Leaves a shitstorm behind him.

If this was a matter of life or death, I think you would be hard pressed to find anyone who thought she should be allowed to go ahead with it. But it's not.

Yet again, you are sliding away from the situation where it's a decision that will lead to the woman spending the rest of her life seriously ill, disabled and in pain. So far as I understand it, what you are saying is that her wish to carry on with the pregnancy based on her mistaken belief that she will be allowed to keep the baby must override all that.

You said that court judgements should not be questioned, certainly not by me, as you specified. But if you are saying it's alright to question them, that's great. Then we agree.

What I said, in response to a previous incorrect suggestion that I was saying that the First Instance decision was "definitely, definitely correct" was:

No-one has said that. So far as I can see, they have said the judgment will be much better informed than those of the people on here who are forming their opinions based solely on some brief media reports.

Clue: the term "No-one" includes me.

Is it your position that your opinion is better informed than that of the judge?

I think we shouldn't put this woman through a termination she doesn't want because she doesn't want it, it isn't medically necessary, and there's no guarantee of a positive outcome. I think I've already said that enough times by now, surely?

Cringemum, all those possibilities about deterioration in the mother's mental health equally apply after a birth - in fact more so. If she's been encouraged to carry on in the mistaken belief that she's going to be allowed to keep the baby, do you think discovering that that isn't the case might just exacerbate that?

Yet again, why do you believe that this judge hasn't considered all those options and made an informed decision based on the evidence about this particular woman?

OccasionalKite, the issue of the father has been addressed several times upthread. For all we know, he may be learning disabled also.

“Still nobody addressing the question of who is the man who is responsible for impregnating this woman”
I understood that this was the subject of a police investigation, so any speculation would be counterproductive.

Pouncer, doctors who know this woman apparently believe that the termination is medically necessary in her best interests and the interests of her mental health. A judge who has seen and heard all the evidence believes that it is. Why do you know better?

How do you know it's definitely right? You don't. This is my view of the situation. One that I'm not alone in having.

Still nobody addressing the question of who is the man who is responsible for impregnating this woman, who is now the subject of a judge's decision.. Let’s address this (again) women with LD can have sex. Women who have sex sometimes get pregnant. There has been no suggestion that this woman was raped.

I think we shouldn't put this woman through a termination she doesn't want because she doesn't want it, it isn't medically necessary, and there's no guarantee of a positive outcome. I think I've already said that enough times by now, surely?

A “positive outcome” isn’t guaranteed in either case. She does not keep her baby in either case. She is going to either get an abortion or go through childbirth. Both have potential to be scary for someone who lacks capacity and has a mood disorder; with one they can at least sedate and medicate her without concern about harm to a fetus.

She has said she wants a baby. No where have I seen it said she “does not want a termination” maybe as she does not understand meaning of that, but “wanting” does not equate to the capacity to consent or understand. As a 5 year old I also wanted a baby, which I saw as something like my dolls, but alive like my baby brother or baby sister. No idea what that meant in terms of pregnancy, childbirth, or parenting.

It has been deemed medically necessary based on her mental and psychological health - what would be less traumatic for her, not not traumatic at all.

“How do you know it's definitely right?”
We don’t. Nobody ever does.

Also, the scenario I put to you was a situation where the termination is medically necessary because the alternative is serious and prolonged disability and pain. You've repeatedly said that in that case the woman's wish to continue to birth, even though it is governed by a total lack of understanding of the risks and a mistaken belief that she can keep the baby, should override everything. You haven't explained why.

How do you know it's definitely right? You don't.

No, i don't. Nobody does. But somebody has to make a decision about it. Do you think the person in possession of all the available facts has a better chance than you or I? If not, why not?

@PouncerDarling I have made my peace with it and he's doing very well. I must admit when I first read your comments It did occur that this story must be very difficult for you to have read. Thank you for sharing what you have because I've seen alot of comments on various threads, not just this one, suggesting than abortion is no big deal and not traumatic and your experience reiterates the fact that is absolutely not the case and is an insult to the women who do suffer greatly after having the procedure. Sending you un-mumsnetty hugs

I'm sure I read that there is an investigation underway to ascertain who the father is and the nature of how the baby was conceived.

I can only hope he is another young adult with learning difficulties because the alternative doesn't bare thinking about.

I really hope this wasn't a man with full capacity knowingly taking advantage of a vulnerable young woman.

I don't see the value in coming up with x number of scenarios that are not this situation to see what I think about that instead. I've already told you what my view is on this. And this is a matter of subjective opinion. There is no possible way any of us knows what the least distressing thing will be for this woman, short of manipulating time. Going hell for leather at me and what I think about x, y, and z is not useful. It's my view that this is not the right thing to do and I've said numerous times why I hold that opinion, including giving very personal information about my background. I think that's enough now and you'll just have to accept we don't agree.

satis

How do you know it's definitely right? You don't.

No, i don't. Nobody does. But somebody has to make a decision about it. Do you think the person in possession of all the available facts has a better chance than you or I? If not, why not?

YY.

and hugs right back at you @Cringemum

Nobody has to make the decision to terminate at all! There isn't a legal process with every pregnancy to determine whether it should be allowed to go ahead or not. You could have simply had a judgement or intervention from professionals to manage the ongoing pregnancy with support. I don't even think a judge should be asked in the first place about ordering terminations.

Is it possible for a baby to be born under general anaesthetic?

Nobody has to make the decision to terminate at all! There isn't a legal process with every pregnancy to determine whether it should be allowed to go ahead or not. You could have simply had a judgement or intervention from professionals to manage the ongoing pregnancy with support. I don't even think a judge should be asked in the first place about ordering terminations.

Except here they do. Because this is a vulnerable adult who does not have capacity to make medical decisions including to consent to a pregnancy going forward or to consent to termination of a pregnancy. If you get pregnant, or I get pregnant, we have the capacity to decide whether our pregnancy should be “allowed to go ahead or not”. This vulnerable adult does not have that capacity.

Those who do have authority to decide could not or were not considered to be able to make a decision in her interests. That is why the court of protection got involved. That is why they exist.

If you disagree, perhaps campaign against legislation that is there to protect vulnerable adults that means others have to make decisions for them where they can’t.

Why kill a healthy baby? It's not the babies fault I think this is awful at the end of the day there is no reason why this 22 year old woman can not deliver her baby Shame on the judge I hope the decision gets over turned a.s.a.p. It's the 21st century for gods sake