A woman with mental age of 9 forced to have abortion

[Gingerkittykat]

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/woman-abortion-court-of-protection-ruling-mentally-ill-a8970121.html?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR0LrwkWGx-4dJtABJSuHLlzyLs7IArhgM_CQVisVjx4Asf3YoCeW4aKk1Y#Echobox=1561203238

I understand that this woman will not be able to care for a baby but cannot believe forcing her to have an abortion under any circumstances is appropriate, especially since she is already 22 weeks pregnant.

I am 100% pro choice, but this woman is having her choice taken away from her.

It is shocking! The legal and political systems are so important and to see such woeful ignorance about how they function is frightening. How can people understand their basic human rights if they don't understand their recourse to law? Or the separation of the legal and political systems?

Yep.

This is how we’ve ended up in this Brexit shitshow as well. The ill informed voting on the basis of their completely incorrect understanding

Which is a perfect example of the attitudes of those supporting what amounts to the medical rape of a disabled black woman.

And you can get a grip as well

The benevolent UK authorities are forcing a disabled black woman to have a late term abortion she doesn’t want. Which will most likely involve instruments being placed between her legs.

She'd have a hell of a lot more happening between her legs when she went into labour and when any internal examinations wer needed in pregnancy and at the six week check.

It would be great if people could express their opinions without resorting to personal attacks also. We can't all agree about everything.

Certainly doesn’t take into account what’s best for the baby.

And neither it should, as the case was about the woman, not the baby.

Also, are you assuming it would definitely be the best for the baby to be born alive? Playing devil’s advocate, but there would I imagine be a more than reasonable chance it could end up in care and outcomes for people who have been in care aren’t always the best.

Having experienced a late term termination, I can confidently tell you that she will be in pain and distress. There is no nice way to go about it

Giving birth to a live infant is extremely painful and can be distressing as well. There’s no outcome that wouldn’t have pain or distress is there?

We don't kill babies to avoid them being put into care. We don't terminate pregnancies where the baby will be taken away at birth. So that's completely irrelevant.

I have seen plenty of court cases whereby the doctors who testified were not specialists. This is why I think we need to know more. Because this does not seem to be a decision based on actual clinical evidence

But you haven't seen that in Court of Protection cases, as journalists aren't allowed in. How can you possibly decide it wasn't based on clinical evidence unless you've read all the reports and heard all the medical witnesses giving evidence?

Medical evidence would be actual research pointing to mental health outcomes for women who have had forced late stage abortions versus those who got to keep their baby who was subsequently adopted post birth

Which would be worthless unless that research involved women with comparable mental health conditions and learning difficulties to those of the mother in this case - which is near impossible.

On the other hand, what would be valid medical evidence would be evidence from the clinicians actually working with this patient and who are familiar with all her medical records. Decisions and medical advice in this case will certainly be based on the clinicians' knowledge of extensive clinical, researched, peer-reviewed evidence as to the effects of learning disabilities and mood disorders generally amongst vulnerable adults, to say nothing of personal experience and learning. It's incredibly arrogant to suggest that we know better.

Ergo the decision was made for social, not medical/clinical reasons. It has been decided that the woman might suffer less if the baby’s life is ended and so that’s what is happening.

What precisely is your evidence for this?

No, that's precisely the point. There is no way to avoid it, so don't kill her unborn child to achieve nothing.

No, that's precisely the point. There is no way to avoid it, so don't kill her unborn child to achieve nothing.

But it’s not about the unborn baby. It’s about the woman. After 33 pages don’t you see that the foetus and their “rights” are not relevant to the proceedings? Because we don’t treat women as incubators. Yet.

I’d hazard a guess that the critics of the court decision here were also supporters of Charlie Gard and Alfie Evans’ “Armies”.

We also shouldn't treat pregnancies - wanted pregnancies - like they are completely irrelevant. That's not right. If I'm twenty two weeks pregnant, or you, or anyone else, I will take that into consideration. I expect other people to take that into consideration.

Again, it would be really nice if you could stick to discussing this rather than making disparaging comments about the other people on the thread.

I won’t be discussing it again pouncer. It’s hugely frustrating discussing something like this with someone who is blinded to reality by emotion. I’d have a far more intellectual discussion with my 13 year old so I’ll maybe do that.

Why don't I have the right to doubt whether a judgement is correct? Is there a law I'm not aware of that means I can't question a judgement?

You can question a judgment. You cannot expect to have credibility in doing so on the basis of a brief media report, given that you have not seen all the evidence on which the judgment was based, you did not see and hear all the witnesses giving evidence, and did not hear all the arguments on both sides.

But even being very good at her job does not give her the prescience to know which outcome would have the least harm in actuality. She can only guess

No, she can make an informed decision based on extensive evidence and legal argument.

In essence, every medical decision is based on a prediction as to what the effects of that decision are going to be, based on all the available medical evidence. No-one can be absolutely certain that their prediction is right. That isn't a reason for refusing to make a decision in the patient's best interests.

It's relevant because it's a life that is going to be ended as a result of this decision. You can't just blithely shrug it off like it doesn't matter.

And yet women with capacity are allowed to make that decision every day in their own interests.. Why shouldn't a judge charged with making a decision for a woman lacking capacity make the same decision if it is in her best interests?

I think that's probably best, if you can't discuss it without making unpleasant comments.

Because the judge is not the one who is pregnant. If she wants to end her own pregnancy, she can go ahead. Not someone else's.

Look if anyone wasn't sure and is reading the thread then I doubt you will have convinced them with all the swearing and talking about how completely ignorant the people who disagree with you are that forced abortion is the way forward for young women with learning difficulties.

To me it suggests that in fact you don't have very good arguments.

I cant believe @PouncerDarling has managed to attempt to debate with you so politely and for so long especially considering her own very painful personal experience.

The case is not about the baby!

PP's:but what about the baby?

Come on it's not rocket science. Even if you disagree with the decision(fair enough) it's not hard to understand and accept the simple fact that it was not about the baby,no matter how many times you try to make it so.

It wasn't even under the remit of the judge to take it under consideration,and if she had done so the judgement would be most definitely flawed. Because this decision was solely about the vulnerable woman.

Having taken some time away from this thread, I've reflected. I know that for me, abortion is not something I would consider. Although I suppose if I was told that the difference between my death and survival would be TOP, then I might change my mind. I know that I would not refuse management of an ectopic pregnancy, for example, but I also know that I refused the triple test because I knew that I would refuse an amniocentesis and would refuse TOP for fetal malformation. Which is a good job because I have a DD who lives a very fulfilled life with a brain malformation.

However, one of the first things that was said was

But you're not answering my question - why do judges need to have their decisions reviewed when every single decision they make is correct? Why would we need to take this to the court of appeal when you've just told us all this judgement is most definitely definitely definitely correct?

No-one has said that. So far as I can see, they have said the judgment will be much better informed than those of the people on here who are forming their opinions based solely on some brief media reports.

If you are seeking to say that, because the Court of Appeal exists, therefore all lower court judgments are inherently unreliable, you clearly don't know anything about the legal system, no matter what you say to the contrary.

She's not being forced to be pregnant. She IS pregnant

And you want to force her to remain pregnant, no matter how damaging that might be to her, in circumstances where a non-disabled woman would be allowed to terminate the pregnancy.

She cannot consent to a termination, which I believe makes it immoral

People lacking capacity in relation to medical decisions cannot consent to any medical treatment. It would be immoral to refuse to make such decisions when the treatment is in their best interests. The fact that this decision relates to a termination of pregnancy makes precisely zero difference to that fact.

3. Having experienced a late term termination, I can confidently tell you that she will be in pain and distress.

From what you tell us, your termination was botched. There is no reason to assume the same will happen here.

Going through childbirth which she simply cannot understand will also cause her pain and distress. So will having the baby taken away from her, or being forced to leave what is probably the only home she knows. Someone who knows much more about her than you do has decided that that will be worse.

4. A significant number of people do not agree that this is in her best interests.

So far as I can tell from the reports, the only person who actually knows her who doesn't agree to this is her mother. The views of internet randoms are irrelevant.

We don't kill babies to avoid them being put into care. We don't terminate pregnancies where the baby will be taken away at birth. So that's completely irrelevant.

I'm not sure that's true. Many, many women terminate pregnancies for reasons like this.

We also shouldn't treat pregnancies - wanted pregnancies - like they are completely irrelevant. That's not right

Define "wanted". Did this woman make a conscious, fully informed decision to get pregnant? Has she made a fully informed decision that she wants to go through the pregnancy only to have the baby taken away?

However, one of the first things that was said was:

"I am 100% pro choice, but this woman is having her choice taken away from her."

I'm not sure that's true. If this woman didn't understand the consequence of intercourse, she wasn't choosing to get pregnant. Even if she understood the consequence, she doesn't necessarily understand that there will be a baby that is there forever, and you can't give it back when you're bored, or you want to go out, etc. Even if she understands that, she doesn't necessarily understand that you have to put the needs of the baby before you. That if it's a choice between something you want and milk/clothes/warmth for the baby, you have to get what the baby needs.

The list goes on of things that she may not understand. So she's really unlikely to be making a choice in the sense that we mean it.

DD1 says, now, that she'll probably never have a baby, because she finds out difficult to look after herself, let alone a baby. But we've been open with her as soon as she asked if she'd have a baby one day. We've always said 'well it's tricky, DD1, because babies need a lot of help all the time, and you already need lots of help yourself.' So she's always had it in her mind that baby=difficult hard work. That doesn't mean she really understands. She's just been conditioned a bit.

Also, I know that, for example, some Jehovah's Witnesses will not consent to blood transfusion, but subtlety make it known that if the procedure is forced on them, they won't be excommunicated in the same way as if they had consented. I wonder if the Catholic mother feels similarly - if she agrees to the abortion she is complicit in foeticide, whereas if it is court ordered, she has no choice so is absolved from guilt?

Pure speculation, but I can see how it must feel terrible to go against a strongly held principle, but know that alternatives aren't viable. Many women who face abortion for medical reasons hope desperately that they will miscarry before they have to make a decision.

I am the adult child of somebody with learning difficulties who is on long term medication because of a mood disorder, in my mother's case it is depression and she is very quick tempered.

I won't insult her by guestimating her "mental age" but I will say she is very childlike in her thinking and mannerisms, she struggles with reading writing and handling admin such as bills and letters.

I was raised by her with live-in support from my grandparents whom my mother still lived with at 38 years old when she fell pregnant with me, she was independent in the sense that she went out alone and used public transport, visited shops alone etc.

My (absent) father is somebody she met out in public away from my grandparents. He struck up a conversation with her before inviting her for a drink and so began a very brief relationship. When my mother told my grandparents about her boyfriend and introduced them, my grandfather forbade the relationship as he was of the (correct) opinion that he was taking advantage. To the best of my knowledge from what i have been told, my father did not have LD's.

The 'relationship' ended at the insistence of my grandfather and several months later my mother discovered she was pregnant with me. The pregnancy only came to light when she reported "feeling funny" to my grandmother who took her to the GP. At this point my mother was already well into the second trimester with me and had no idea she was pregnant, she had no visible bump. My grandparents had no idea.

The reason I've mentioned my experience is because I've seen alot of people saying the young woman's mother simply must have known about the pregnancy early on and how could she not know her daughter was being taken advantage of. The point I wanted to make was that many adults with LD's have enough freedom and independence which allows for sexual relationships to occur away from the family home. It's not fair to say her mother is negligent without knowing all of the facts which we (rightly) have not been given.

This young woman's case is so tragic and harrowing I feel as though whatever decision is made, she is going to suffer considerable and irreparable emotional harm.

The mother in me, having just had my third child, wants to say let her carry the baby to term and find prospective adopters who can give him/her a quality of life that the mother cannot. Ideally the birth would be a C-section under GA so the woman doesn't have to go through the rigors of labour and have any distressing memories of the birth.

I say this as somebody who is a birth mother aswell as a mother to my two at home with me, so I'm not unfamiliar with the pain that comes with a baby being adopted against my will. My situation happened when I was in my late teens and deemed unable to care for the baby BUT to me this would have been the lesser of two evils as I feel that had I had an abortion forced upon me it would have caused me significantly more emotional harm than knowing and eventually accepting that my baby was being cared for by another family.

Whatever the procedure she goes through be it D&E to abort or an cesarian to give birth, there are risks to both and as babies can survive outside of the womb within a few weeks of her gestation I can't help but think if she's this far along in pregnancy the most humane option would be to allow her to carry the baby to term.

There is no happy ending for this poor young woman and it's heartbreaking.