A woman with mental age of 9 forced to have abortion

[Gingerkittykat]

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/woman-abortion-court-of-protection-ruling-mentally-ill-a8970121.html?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR0LrwkWGx-4dJtABJSuHLlzyLs7IArhgM_CQVisVjx4Asf3YoCeW4aKk1Y#Echobox=1561203238

I understand that this woman will not be able to care for a baby but cannot believe forcing her to have an abortion under any circumstances is appropriate, especially since she is already 22 weeks pregnant.

I am 100% pro choice, but this woman is having her choice taken away from her.

You are again listing things that are inevitable at this stage of pregnancy, @FeministCat

Quite. And not only this, a lack of self-awareness, so that they think they can spout their ill-informed uneducated bilge as fact with impunity.

Trumpism is international.

@santaclara now that I dont understand. If the client doesn't have capacity and the court has to act in their best interests anyway in what way will the lawyer represent their clients interests other than considering what they think will be best for them?

No, I'm sorry but I can't agree with you that allowing a woman to give birth and then have the child adopted is in any way comparable to forcibly terminating her pregnancy against her will. The first is accepted in society as being a regrettable inevitability in a sad number of cases. The second is instinctively horrible because it is deeply inhumane.

Irrespective of how intelligent this woman is, how is any human being going to feel about having their wanted child killed when it's in their womb? Perhaps you are just not capable of imagining the reality of what you are suggesting. She could be psychologically scarred for life because of that. I think most women on the planet would find that experience horrifically traumatic.

No, they aren’t.

She does not have to continue a pregnancy.

She does not have to continue seeing her belly grow and feeling other discomforts of pregnancy that she may not understand.

She does not have to have the potential risk of increased psychological issues suggested as pregnancy continues.

She does not have to go into labour.

She does not have to birth the child through labour (I don’t know why people keep ignoring she can have a D&E or hysterotomy under sedation without consciousness or pain, except to claim she has to “give birth” no matter what).

Both before and after the abortion she can continue her medication without worry about harm to the fetus or having to amend her medication to protect the fetus.

After the abortion she won’t have to move out of her home.

After the abortion she won’t have to watch her baby taken away.

that I dont understand. If the client doesn't have capacity and the court has to act in their best interests anyway in what way will the lawyer represent their clients interests other than considering what they think will be best for them?

They are officers of the court. They can argue for the law to be applied in a certain way and they can argue for the wishes of the client. Children for example are appointed legal counsel in child protection cases. These are minors who don’t have the “capacity” to make decisions but they can share their wants and wishes.

Many posters still don't seem to understand that this case was only before the CoP due to lack of capacity.

A woman with LD and mental health issues is living supported by family carers and social services. She is pregnant.

Plenty of women in this situation may still have capacity and would be able to make the decision on whether or not to proceed with the pregnancy themselves and also, even in this age of austerity, access the support available to help her in this.

This woman doesn't have capacity. Some involved in her care felt termination was in her best interests. Others felt proceeding with the pregnancy was.

Someone has to make that decision and it can't be her, not because she has LDs or mental health issues, but because she lacks capacity. Those involved in her care did not agree. Therefore the CoP was invoked and made the decision.

Nothing in this has ramifications for any other case, policy or person.

Yes, they are. She's going to have hormonal changes, she's going to bleed, she's going to be in a significant amount of pain, she's going to have to spend time in the hospital being frightened. There's no 'not pregnant anymore' button. You cannot get a twenty two week old baby out of a woman's stomach without significant medical intervention. It's statistically possible she could die from the procedure.

And as for not wanting her to watch the baby be taken away, but instead being happy for it to be killed... Yuck.

She could be psychologically scarred for life because of that. I think most women on the planet would find that experience horrifically traumatic

Well, the court found the psychological harm of a second term abortion was less than continuing the pregnancy and childbirth and adoption. So they disagreed based on the actual evidence before them.

Do you know many vulnerable adults?

You can’t speak of this woman as if she has capacity to understand things the way you do. That she “knows” she is pregnant. That she “knows” means she will have to give birth. That she “knows” she will have to either give it away or move out. That she would be “psychologically” scarred that today she is “pregnant” (as to whatever that means to her) and tomorrow she just is not.

She's going to have hormonal changes, she's going to bleed, she's going to be in a significant amount of pain, she's going to have to spend time in the hospital being frightened.

Doubtful this vulnerable adult has never been in hospital or around doctors, but okay. Still not sure your point as they can give her as much sedation and pain medication as required as no need to protect a fetus. I had an abortion as I said several times under oral sedation. I have also had IV sedation and GA. I remember NOTHING of the procedures or, due to oral
sedation, of even going into surgery. Pain medication after meant little pain, even after major surgery.

There's no 'not pregnant anymore' button. You cannot get a twenty two week old baby out of a woman's stomach without significant medical intervention

Yes, like a D&E under sedation. No one has denied she needs medical intervention for the abortion.

It's statistically possible she could die from the procedure.

Though according to stats already posted, more likely she dies from childbirth. So if we are going by mortality risk second term abortion is the better risk (though mortality risk was not the question before the court).

And as for not wanting her to watch the baby be taken away, but instead being happy for it to be killed... Yuck.

Well if anyone close to her who loves her tells her “we are killing your baby” then the court is not the problem here.

You keep saying that, in your opinion, it makes no odds to her whether she's pregnant or not. Which makes me interested in what you think the 'heartbreaking' details the judge had to consider are in this case? I mean, if she's basically just a facsimile of a human being with no concept of normal feelings and emotions, why would it be heartbreaking to make such a decision? Or even, if she is just a sort of approximation of a human being, who wouldn't even notice a baby being gone, how does that tally with your claim that she'll be upset if the baby is taken away from her?

And yes, I know, and have known, a lot of vulnerable children and adults.

“n what way will the lawyer represent their clients interests other than considering what they think will be best for them?“
The lawyers will presumably put many of the points that posters have made on here. They may or may not agree with those points- that’s not their job. Their job is to represent the opposing case as well as they possibly can.

LangCleg

I think the lack of understanding is just deliberate at this point. It would be wise to just C&P your post repeatedly!

Yes. The lawyer in this case (remember it's the guardian on one side and the medics on the other) will have put what wishes the woman might have expressed, plus her guardians point of view.
Lawyers have to represent those they are employed to speak for as well as they possibly can. Even if they believe that absolute opposite. Successful lawyers are consummate actors.

You keep saying that, in your opinion, it makes no odds to her whether she's pregnant or not.

Please quote where I said that. Because I did not say that.

Which makes me interested in what you think the 'heartbreaking' details the judge had to consider are in this case?

You mean like the ones where the woman is vulnerable and in a situation she should not be in? Where her own mother wants the infant but it would mean the vulnerable adult needs to go into care? Where the vulnerable adult has some vague sense she would “like a baby” but has no capacity to understand what that involves or that can never happen? Where the pregnancy likely got so far along because her mother is anti-abortion?

I mean, if she's basically just a facsimile of a human being with no concept of normal feelings and emotions, why would it be heartbreaking to make such a decision?

Please quote where I said this adult is a “facsimile” and does not have feelings or emotions. Feelings and emotions do not = capacity.

Or even, if she is just a sort of approximation of a human being, who wouldn't even notice a baby being gone, how does that tally with your claim that she'll be upset if the baby is taken away from her?

Please quote where I even said she was not a human being. I said she may have no concept that terminating her pregnancy means the “baby is gone”. As I said above, if people close to her and who care for her are telling her they are “killing her baby” then her guardians should probably be reconsidered.

Tbh I do wonder why this case made it to the CoP . A lot of women with disabilities,mental heals issues and LD's give birth, some are even allowed to keep those babies. There must've been more considerations than "she's pregnant let's get rid of it" for it to go to court. Those considerations could be anything from the circumstances of her conception, how/why she was so far along to how the pregnancy affected her mental health and her treatment and how the treatment would affect the baby,whether she stopped taking it etc.

Oh, so they should keep it a secret from her that she's having a termination and the baby will be dead? How do you think that is going to work?

Again, you're comparing a termination at a much, much earlier stage of development to this. I am honestly glad for you that you don't remember yours. I don't want to recount the details of mine to you, nor the details of the experiences of the women around me. But I will tell you that it was the single most horrifying experience of my life.

No I am not comparing the abortion. I am comparing the sedation. Were you under oral sedation, IV sedation, or GA during your abortion? She can have a D&E under heavy sedation (including IV sedation or GA). Before she goes to the hospital she can also receive oral sedation such as Ativan.

I have also had abdominal surgery, bilateral mastectomies, and reconstructions under GA and don’t remember those. I have had wrist surgery and major dental surgeries under IV sedation and don’t remember those either.

You are seemingly assuming she is going to have to be awake, be induced, and need to remember any of it. She does not.

Oh, so they should keep it a secret from her that she's having a termination and the baby will be dead? How do you think that is going to work?

See when you say things like this I do doubt your claim you “know lots of vulnerable children and adults”, at least to point they have determined to lack capacity. My colleague’s daughter, who is a vulnerable adult under guardianship knows what babies are, knows someone can have a baby in the belly, but has no concept that the baby is birthed out of the woman, or how it gets there, and if she hears someone “lost their baby” wonders where they last saw it.

Again, I would hope the people who love her and care for her would be able to find a way to tell her she needs surgery with some compassion and consideration for her dependent on her level of understanding.

By that argument, someone could compassionately explain to her that her baby has to live somewhere else. You can't have it both ways.

To whoever said, “you are supposed to be a journalist you should know this”.

I have seen plenty of court cases whereby the doctors who testified were not specialists. This is why I think we need to know more. Because this does not seem to be a decision based on actual clinical evidence.

The full judgement has yet to be released. What we know is snippets. Hence we need to wait for it to appear in full.

This entire case is predicated around what a future reaction could be. There is no research in this field suggesting forced abortion has better outcomes than adoption hence it’s a best guess. They could be right or they could be wrong & the judgement does not once take into account the other human life involved other than to make value judgements about how because the woman can’t touch the baby, he or she is not real.

It’s all subjective opinion. I mentioned the case where the judge opined that a mother who was breastfeeding a 15 month old and still co-sleeping was not acting in her child’s best interests.

I’m guessing most people here wouldn’t wax lyrical about how the judge must know best when it comes to the best interests of the child.

I had sedation, but I remember most of it. I was with four other women having the same procedure. We all remember it. I haven't forgotten the screams from that night. And I never will.

What kind of sedation was that, then? Because if it was IV sedation or a GA I hope you complained to the board of physicians.

Sorry, I am truly sorry for your experience but the more you post the worse it seems the details become (now adding four other women on the same night all also immune to effects of sedation that you also keep in touch with to know they all remember it?) so it does make me question things.

Even if this woman experiences a tenth of what we went through that night, against her will, actually makes my blood run cold.

Or she could experience zero of it. Not also sure how childbirth or a C-Section for someone lacking capacity would be less traumatic.

What you are advocating for is NOT a good solution.

I am not “advocating” for anything. The court had made their decision. I just support it and support it being carried out in a way that minimizes her own pain or memory of it.

The full judgement has yet to be released. What we know is snippets. Hence we need to wait for it to appear in full.

You may be waiting a long time if not forever. There is a reason full details aren’t released in court of protection matters.