A woman with mental age of 9 forced to have abortion

[Gingerkittykat]

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/woman-abortion-court-of-protection-ruling-mentally-ill-a8970121.html?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR0LrwkWGx-4dJtABJSuHLlzyLs7IArhgM_CQVisVjx4Asf3YoCeW4aKk1Y#Echobox=1561203238

I understand that this woman will not be able to care for a baby but cannot believe forcing her to have an abortion under any circumstances is appropriate, especially since she is already 22 weeks pregnant.

I am 100% pro choice, but this woman is having her choice taken away from her.

SweetJasmine17, this isn't about the relative pain of a termination, childbirth and a C-section. It's about the mental health consequence of having the child but having it put into care, or alternatively having to leave her home.

And in other newspapers she has mild learning difficulties

aPengTing

Exactly. Remaining pregnant for the next 4 months might well be very damaging for this woman. Does she even understand what being pregnant is or understand what is happening to her body now?

We don't know the details of this case and rightly so. But those that do have balanced the pros and cons of both choices and have decided that termination now is the least worst choice. The only person whose well being counts is the woman concerned.

@MrsMiggins37

You announced that the court agreed with you, as if that thereby proved that this decision is unquestionably correct. But I'm pretty sure you can think of many, many instances where courts have made decisions that have turned out to be inhumane. So what relevance is it whether or not the court agrees with you? We've had courts sentence elephants to death by hanging before. I suppose there were people then going well, the judge must have looked at all the facts and it's not for me to say you shouldn't murder an elephant if the judge says so.

Off the top of your head, can you think of any decisions made by courts that have been wrong?

What a ridiculous straw man. And, in any case, basically asked and answered pages back.

Do I think the court of protection is infallible? No. Do I think it has made an error on the best interests of this vulnerable adult in this case? I don't and can't know for sure unless the full judgement is made available. Do I think it more likely than not that the court has come to the best available judgement given all the circumstances? Yes.

Omg not this again @Isatis😩 if it's not about pain then what is it? Sadly she'll be traumatised either way(either baby was killed or it disappeared )at least this way some good comes out of it.

So where are you going to set the limits of the court's powers in relation to people who lack capacity, Pouncer? Should they be able to order medical treatment? DNAR directives when someone is seriously ill and in agony? Does an incapacitous woman have to go through a pregnancy just because the consequences to her will "only" be serious disability rather than death?

Do tell us when the UK courts have ordered the hanging of elephants within the last century, Pouncer.

If we are going to sat the courts must not have any jurisdiction in this or anything else because, once upon a time, they ordered hanging for theft, that way chaos lies.

Pouncer I know A LOT about this area of law. Based on my understanding of the law and the facts that have been made public on this case the court made the decision I would have expected. That’s all I meant.

The arguments about considering the religious beliefs of the grandmother and wider community don't stack up anyway. There have been cases where the CoP have ordered children whose parents are Jehovah's witnesses to have blood transfusions where their lives are in danger, so going against the religious beliefs of the parents and the community they belong to.

They do this because the CoP is concerned with the best interests of the person in front of them, not the beliefs of their parents, relatives or friends.

And in other newspapers she has mild learning difficulties

If she lacks capacity, she clearly has more than mild learning difficulties. It is also acknowledged that she has a mood disorder.

Omg not this again @Isatis😩 if it's not about pain then what is it? Sadly she'll be traumatised either way(either baby was killed or it disappeared )at least this way some good comes out of it.

She’s only 22 weeks pregnant, there’s a massive chunk, almost half of the pregnancy left which can be very physically dangerous for a lot of women. As I said somewhere upthread I’m pretty sure that physically at least pregnancy and childbirth always carry more risk of harm than abortion.

I find it concerning that there is an assumption this woman has been raped. People with learning difficulties often want to and can have sex, having a learning disability doesnt remove sexual desire or the need for intimacy. Given there is no mention of rape in this case we might assume that she has an appropriate boyfriend. Ideally she would have been on some long acting contraception obviously. I've worked for mencap and has a sister with significant learning disabilities who has a boyfriend who she has sex with.. and good for her. It's an appropriate relationship (he also has a ld), shes always safe at home, she has an implant. This case is incredibly sad, but pw lds are not children, and it's really important they are supported to have safe meaningful and sexual relationships if thats what they want.

Hm, can we think of any examples where the courts or legislation have ordered measures to be taken against women to remove their children where they're judged to be unfit, which later turned out to be completely disgusting and inhumane, within the last century... Let me think...

But whether that’s true or not pouncer it’s not relevant to this case. Even if courts have got it wrong in the past it doesn’t mean they have here.

Omg not this again @Isatis😩 if it's not about pain then what is it? Sadly she'll be traumatised either way(either baby was killed or it disappeared )at least this way some good comes out of it.

RTFT, SweetJasmine. I can't believe that you seriously think that this is about relative physical pain.

Someone who has actually read all the reports, and who has had the benefit of seeing and hearing witnesses on both sides, has taken the view that it would be much more traumatising for this woman to have to give up the baby once it is born or to have to lose her home. For anyone to say that imposing much greater trauma on a vulnerable woman is fine because there may be a baby at the end of it, is really horribly cold-blooded. It's effectively reducing her to the level of an incubator.

It doesn't mean they have got it right though, does it? The fallibility of the court system absolutely means we should be casting an ongoing critical eye over their decisions.

Sliding away from the elephant-hanging question, Pouncer?

We used to hang people for murder. In my view, that was completely wrong. If you are seriously saying that that means that the courts must now refuse to make decisions in the best interests of incapacitous people, how do you suggest that their interests be protected? Or shouldn't we bother?

The fallibility of the court system absolutely means we should be casting an ongoing critical eye over their decisions.

We don't have the full judgement.

Much of this thread is ill-informed projection.

The facility to cast critical eyes over court decisions is available by virtue of the Court of Appeal, the Supreme Court and, in appropriate cases, the European Court. It doesn't mean that the power for the courts to make such decisions must be completely removed.

You don't have the full judgement either, so your opinion is just as ill-informed as anyone else's.

FFS, we've been through this. You can't assume that woman with a mental age of 6-9 and a mood disorder is precisely comparable with a 6-9 year old NT child.
No of course you can’t. But YOU are assuming that she can’t be religious, isn’t a practicing Catholic and will be able to put aside everything she has been taught and is believed by her community. I no longer go to church though was fairly serious about being a Catholic for a long time. I also have a teen who might be described by —someone fairly obtuse— a newspaper in similar ways to this young woman. The fact her background, feelings and wants are being dismissed is fairly horrifying to me. I imagine this is seen as the best of a bad situation for many, but I personally find it really disturbing and it feels very very wrong.

And those courts make different decisions sometimes, don't they? About the same set of circumstances?

Hmm I can only imagine how many abusive men would love to manipulate this court case in the future. You know, the kind of men who cheat and gaslight their partners then say the woman is just "crazy". It would be a dream for them to be able to force through an abortion, I bet. This seems anti choice and against women's rights.