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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

A woman with mental age of 9 forced to have abortion

999 replies

Gingerkittykat · 22/06/2019 14:24

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/woman-abortion-court-of-protection-ruling-mentally-ill-a8970121.html?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR0LrwkWGx-4dJtABJSuHLlzyLs7IArhgM_CQVisVjx4Asf3YoCeW4aKk1Y#Echobox=1561203238

I understand that this woman will not be able to care for a baby but cannot believe forcing her to have an abortion under any circumstances is appropriate, especially since she is already 22 weeks pregnant.

I am 100% pro choice, but this woman is having her choice taken away from her.

OP posts:
nolongersurprised · 23/06/2019 01:07

Yes, I do think removing the baby is less traumatic and overall does less harm.

Why?

So the woman gives birth, hears a loud lusty baby cry and then it’s taken away and she’s told she can’t have it. How is that better?

PouncerDarling · 23/06/2019 01:09

If it's not better, why don't we terminate all babies who are due to be adopted? What difference does it make to the mothers? They're not going to keep the baby anyway, so might as well nip it in the bud at four months gestation. Apart from that being absolutely inhumane, what's the problem?

PouncerDarling · 23/06/2019 01:10

Sorry, FIVE months gestation.

nolongersurprised · 23/06/2019 01:10

For the mother. Taking a baby away for its own and her safety is less harmful than forcibly terminating it.

Why?

PouncerDarling · 23/06/2019 01:10

Because forcing a termination on a human being is barbaric.

FeministCat · 23/06/2019 01:11

For the mother. Taking a baby away for its own and her safety is less harmful than forcibly terminating it.

You leave out a lot.

This vulnerable woman, with an intellectual disability and a mood disorder, would still go into labour, still need to go through childbirth or a c-section (likely even if not in her “wishes”), and have the baby removed, and be left to deal with all the post-childbirth effects, possibly even complications.

Why is that less harmful than an abortion procedure done under sedation where she won’t be aware of the procedure or likely to even remember it?

PouncerDarling · 23/06/2019 01:12

We're just going over and over the same thing. You don't agree with me. I don't agree with you. I think I've already said everything I have to say about this

FeministCat · 23/06/2019 01:14

Because forcing a termination on a human being is barbaric.

You never answered about what happens if it is determined this vulnerable adult can’t go through vaginal birth (ie perhaps she can’t listen or respond to instructions due to her disabilities, perhaps it is too traumatic for her as she does not know what is happening to her body). Do you consider a c-section in that case “barbaric” as well?

YourSarcasmIsDripping · 23/06/2019 01:14

If it's not better, why don't we terminate all babies who are due to be adopted?

Because those women have the capacity to understand and choose birth. Because they can make that decision themselves and weigh up the pros and cons.

Because this case was NOT ABOUT THE BABY!!!

DioneTheDiabolist · 23/06/2019 01:15

I think the judge's ruling was completely right.

FeministCat · 23/06/2019 01:16

If it's not better, why don't we terminate all babies who are due to be adopted?

Because women who have capacity to make decisions can make decisions they want to, including to carry to term and adopt the child out. They understand the consequences of carrying to term and then giving that baby away. They can consent to giving that baby away for adoption.

koolaider · 23/06/2019 01:19

Because forcing a termination on a human being is barbaric.

So is going full term to birth. Without all the facts on this case. For someone who lacks capacity, what would be the most barbaric in your view?

PouncerDarling · 23/06/2019 01:19

You should know perfectly well that plenty of babies are taken away from women that do not consent, but because they are judged not to have the ability to take care of the child.

Anyway, I really have said everything I have to say on this.

FeministCat · 23/06/2019 01:21

Stop shifting goalposts.

You asked why women who want to give up babies to adoption aren’t forced to terminate instead. Their choice and ability to consent to continue a pregnancy and adopt a child out is not the same as children being removed for their protection.

nolongersurprised · 23/06/2019 01:23

For the mother. Taking a baby away for its own and her safety is less harmful than forcibly terminating it.

There are 2 components to this. The first is the physical procedure and it’s hard to argue that a termination is MORE risky than giving birth .

The second is emotionally, and the judge decided that based on the woman’s capacity, the loss of a baby after birth would have a greater emotional impact than a termination.

The rationale of, “I know I can’t care for this child but if s/he is adopted then they’ll have a good chance of having a better upbringing” is fairly mentally sophisticated.

stucknoue · 23/06/2019 01:28

The concept of "mental age" is terribly flawed, having reduced intellectual capacity doesn't mean they are not adults not just it mean that they cannot desire and consent to sex, though it would affect ability to realise the consequences.

I don't know the details of this case, how she ended up pregnant etc and for her well being, it possibly is the right decision (without being a judge on the case we can only speculate) but I know people with mental capacity ages in the same range that are very keen on relationships and one is now living with his girlfriend who through the court of protection has had long term birth control implanted. We must never confuse learning disabilities with childhood

GrapefruitsAreNotTheOnlyFruit · 23/06/2019 01:40

Um it's worse for her because her baby will be dead. She will most like realise this to some extent.

Her mother who she lives with will also be upset, being Catholic she will consider it pretty much state sanctioned murder and will probably want some type of funeral service which the daughter will attend. Unless the court also bans her from attending religious services too as being against her best interests.

A decision is being made for her because she doesn't have capacity. Its been decided for her that it will be better for her to have a late abortion rather than have her baby adopted after birth. Not sure how many people with capacity would make that choice. There aren't many abortions this late and they are usually for medical reasons.

Its possible also that they are wrong that she would be a danger to the baby if it was in her mothers care. I wonder whether her mother is in agreement with that assessment or how they can know that for sure without reassessing after the birth before making a final decision.

Also I don't understand why people here think the baby doesn't matter at all. It isn't a clump of cells at this point in the pregnancy. It might not have legal rights but that doesn't mean it is of no importance. I am in favour of abortion because I believe it to be essential to women's rights but I am not blind to the fact there is a potential conflict of rights taking place.

ChipSandwich · 23/06/2019 01:54

That’s a horrific thing for a small child to go through (to all intents and purposes she is a small child, mentally)

No, she isn’t

Actually, intellectually, yes she is.

DioneTheDiabolist · 23/06/2019 02:08

CONCLUSION:Legal induced abortion is markedly safer than childbirth. The risk of death associated with childbirth is approximately 14 times higher than that with abortion. Similarly, the overall morbidity associated with childbirth exceeds that with abortion.
From www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22270271/

it’s hard to argue that a termination is MORE risky than giving birth .
What is your source for this nolongersurprised?

nolongersurprised · 23/06/2019 02:10

Um it's worse for her because her baby will be dead. She will most like realise this to some extent.

How do you know what her capacity for memory and reasoning is? How would you explain the difference between “dead” and “not there” to a small child?

nolongersurprised · 23/06/2019 02:14

dione your post agrees with my point.

DioneTheDiabolist · 23/06/2019 02:17

Her mother who she lives with will also be upset, being Catholic she will consider it pretty much state sanctioned murder and will probably want some type of funeral service which the daughter will attend. Unless the court also bans her from attending religious services too as being against her best interests.
WTAF am I reading?Shock Why would you even think that GrapefruitsAreNotTheOnlyFruit?ShockConfusedHmm

FeministCat · 23/06/2019 02:20

Why would you even think that GrapefruitsAreNotTheOnlyFruit?

Because why bother with facts when we can have made up facts!? When someone resorts to those there isn’t even a point in debate anymore as it’s all nonsense.

2BoysandaCairn · 23/06/2019 04:02

Not going to question the decision of judge.
But feministcat you keep saying about abortion under medical conditions, so not needing to give birth. I just read the bpap link, posted up thread, there is a click on section for risks and problems,
It lists that often a second procedure will be needed to clean out the pregnancy , that there maybe pain, increased and prolonged bleeding, damaged to the cervix and womb and as with all medical procedures infection. Plus variable psychologically problems, even death (1 in 100000).
Is this something to inflict on a vunerable lady.

Plus there have been numerous cases of young girls getting terminations, through parental/societal pressures, who are then pregnant within a year. What is to stop is happening here.

Finally I think this thread shows naivety, a middle class white naivety, that judges and the NHS know best, One poster mentioned our care system is poor, another said it wasn't.
It is sadly shocking, we have a historic child abuse scandal, a care service in meltdown, a serious lack of social workers, lack of GP's and a underfunded mental health service.
CAMHS is a joke, even when your child threatens to kill themselves, they are discharged with the words, when they do it come back
kids around us are in mental health wards 250 miles from their homes and families.

This case sadly just shows how little Britain/England gives a shit about it's disabled and mentally unwell youth. It doesn't because the middle/upper classes like to pretend it doesn't happen/or does effect their kids.

This is a horrific case which will not have a happy ending, because the lady in question will need major psychological help to recover and the one thing you can guarantee is the nhs trust and the COP won't fund that. Because there is no funding.

nolongersurprised · 23/06/2019 04:14

This case sadly just shows how little Britain/England gives a shit about it's disabled and mentally unwell youth. It doesn't because the middle/upper classes like to pretend it doesn't happen/or does effect their kids.

How does “this case” of a pregnant woman with an intellectual disability show that the U.K. doesn’t care about its disabled and mentally unwell youth?

What do you think would have been a better outcome?