A woman with mental age of 9 forced to have abortion

[Gingerkittykat]

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/woman-abortion-court-of-protection-ruling-mentally-ill-a8970121.html?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR0LrwkWGx-4dJtABJSuHLlzyLs7IArhgM_CQVisVjx4Asf3YoCeW4aKk1Y#Echobox=1561203238

I understand that this woman will not be able to care for a baby but cannot believe forcing her to have an abortion under any circumstances is appropriate, especially since she is already 22 weeks pregnant.

I am 100% pro choice, but this woman is having her choice taken away from her.

Sorry, you're trying to argue that a hysterotomy is not a painful procedure?

Those who like to make this big issue about viability, would you have agreed with the court if they had ordered that the vulnerable adult had to carry to 24 weeks, then give birth by induced birth (so no option of sedation where she would not recall or all the pain medication she needed and a D&E or hysterotomy), so the child could be put on life support systems and may or may not survive and may or may not have lifelong health complications?

Why or why not?

Sorry, you're trying to argue that a hysterotomy is not a painful procedure?

I am not arguing it isn’t. I am saying it can be done under sedation with a lot of pain medication, and I am not sure how it is more painful than childbirth (especially a C-section as some have argued she could have instead). It is a much smaller incision at this stage than a C-section and she can be under sedation for it.

Seriously, since when was the state seen as a benign arbiter with regards to women's interests? Thats' right, never.

I don't think anyone would agree that the woman should be forced to continue a pregnancy any more than she should be forced to have a termination. Both are inconceivably awful.

If the mother is very opposed to abortion, it may well be that she has not looked at this problem impartially and in her daughter's best interests.

Just like it would've been looked at if her mother pushed for an abortion and there would've been a possibility of her keeping and raising the baby with support.
Or if she herself wanted an abortion and her mum was against it.

It is painful. The whole point you're making is that you want this woman to avoid being traumatised, while at the same time advocating for procedures which will inevitably traumatise her.

Someone has just shared with us details of what sounds like a pretty traumatic late term abortion. Frankly as I stated above friends of mine who have had late abortions have also had a dreadful time. I think it's a different ball game from early abortion. Whatever you think of this case I don't think you should minimise this.

I also have friends who have had late term abortions. One just had one at 21 weeks a few months ago. I am saying that with this vulnerable adult such abortion can be under sedation - via D&E for example - and does not need to be an induced birth abortion. Which would likely be appropriate in this woman’s circumstances.

I am aware it is different than an early abortion, but the PP assumed I had no experience at all with pregnancy. I stated otherwise.

Just like it would've been looked at if her mother pushed for an abortion and there would've been a possibility of her keeping and raising the baby with support.
Or if she herself wanted an abortion and her mum was against it.*

Which is why the COP is there, whatever the situation. Priority is the vulnerable woman.

If the mother is very opposed to abortion, it may well be that she has not looked at this problem impartially and in her daughter's best interests. It's important that the state ensures that she is not putting her own interests before her daughter's.

Strong aversion to abortion may also equate to issues with contraception, or even acknowledgement that sex is occurring,

In a working capacity I have met many women whose daughters have an intellectual disability and most seem very pragmatic about it. As well as being worried about the inherent vulnerability of these girls/women there’s an appreciation that older teenagers have sexual feelings and can also want romantic relationships. Long term contraception is used often.

why was she having intercourse?
Presumably because she wanted to. Why is it so hard to understand that disabled adults are romantically and sexually active and they have a right to be so?

She is going to be traumatized either way. It is just you feel the trauma of carrying through pregnancy and childbirth is justified because there is a live baby at the end. I disagree. I think an abortion under sedation at this stage is less traumatic for this woman than continuing on in a pregnancy when she cannot even really grasp the consequences of having this child are.

This is a vulnerable adult. She cannot make the choice. The court had to make a difficult choice and decided what was more persuasive on the evidence before them.

woman to avoid being traumatised, while at the same time advocating for procedures which will inevitably traumatise her.

There is no option in which she wouldn't be traumatised, even the judge agreed to that. It was decided that abortion would be the least traumatising. It's not sunshine and rainbows amd happily ever after one end and "killing" her baby at the other.

Who would want that judge’s job? I’m grateful for all the professionals who spend their working lives dealing with this kind of case.

It's got nothing to do with there being a live baby at the end of it. It's to do with forcing life changing and traumatic medical procedures on someone.

When someone is pregnant, we shouldn't put them through a legal process to see if it should be terminated. That just shouldn't happen. If it was about the life or death of the mother, perhaps. But for social reasons is treacherously close to eugenics.

She has no understanding of this baby as a foetus

If she doesn't understand even this, why was she having sex?

Are you actually reading any replies to your posts? It has been pointed out to you several times that sexual desire and sexual pleasure are not connected to an understanding of the implications of same.

The idea that the wishes of the grandmother should be taken into consideration is terrifying. If you’re looking for dangerous precedents, there’s one right there

Absolutely spot on. I'm one of the posters who was critical of the mother. I stand by what I said.

When someone is pregnant, we shouldn't put them through a legal process to see if it should be terminated. That just shouldn't happen. If it was about the life or death of the mother, perhaps. But for social reasons is treacherously close to eugenics.

This judgement wasn't made for social reasons. It was made for the welfare of the young woman.

WHY is no-one reading the actual facts of this case? They've been given over and over again. R.T.F.T

why was she having intercourse?

Presumably because she wanted to. Why is it so hard to understand that disabled adults are romantically and sexually active and they have a right to be so?

I think poster asking the question struggles with the idea that any woman wants to have intercourse.

Society shouldn't be making those decisions. Look back at examples throughout history and other cultures where women have had forced terminations, forced sterilisations, forced adoptions. Did those societies always get those decisions right? Is this a matter of unquestionable right? No, it isn't.

It's got nothing to do with there being a live baby at the end of it. It's to do with forcing life changing and traumatic medical procedures on someone.

No, it has to with making medical decisions for someone who does not have capacity to make medical decisions for themselves. This happens ALL the time, only difference is there is a fetus involved here. It happens for children, it happens for vulnerable adults, it happens for people who have dementia.

How would you feel if the ruling was about an organ transplant? Potentially life saving, but also puts that person forever dependent on medication and at higher risk of infection. Or a risky brain surgery? Could help them, but also could kill them.

How is her life more changed by not having a baby now and ending a pregnancy, than by continuing a pregnancy, having a baby, having the baby taken away, or having to move into residential care?

What if she carried through the pregnancy and the decision was she needed a c-section but she refused as it was not “her wishes”? If she didn’t do it, her baby would die, and she would likely also die. Would you feel okay about a “traumatic medical procedure” being forced then?

why was she having intercourse?
Presumably because she wanted to. Why is it so hard to understand that disabled adults are romantically and sexually active and they have a right to be so?

Exactly. She's a human being with needs and wants. Sex is basic. The consequences of sex she does not have capacity.

I think poster asking the question struggles with the idea that any woman wants to have intercourse.

In my own limited internet experience, those who admonish others for having sexual desires and enjoying and wanting sexual relationships self-declare themselves as asexual.

It's to do with forcing life changing and traumatic medical procedures on someone.

Like giving birth? Have you even considered that a vulnerable woman with learning difficulties might be forced/pressured by the woman who raised her and cares her life, a woman who is strongly anti abortion, into giving birth?

It is simply not true that all abortions at this stage are necessarily painful and definitely not worse than childbirth at full term.

Yes, because most abortions at this stage are terminations for medical reasons, they tend to be highly traumatic for the mother. But that doesn't mean they have to be painful.

Depending on the mother's health and the actual developmental size of the baby, a number of different procedures are available.

I am fully aware from talking to women who have had this done to them, that some American abortion clinics use unnecessarily painful procedures. They often don't even know that other options are available. But we can manage pain extremely well for all manner of medical conditions and surgeries and injuries. In order to speed recovery and enable the patient to go home faster, it is very common to reduce pain relief fairly quickly where this doesn't slow down recovery. The opposite is also possible where this is better for the patient. It is therefore highly likely that this woman will made as comfortable as possible while she is in the hospital.

And I can understand why her mother was fighting to continue the pregnancy. This may well have been her only chance to have a grandchild. I think it's quite likely that I would have fought tooth and nail to secure that precious grandchild. That doesn't mean she doesn't love her daughter. It's just possible she wasn't in a good position to objectively weigh up what was in her daughter's best interests.

I feel desperately sad for all of them.