A woman with mental age of 9 forced to have abortion

[Gingerkittykat]

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/woman-abortion-court-of-protection-ruling-mentally-ill-a8970121.html?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR0LrwkWGx-4dJtABJSuHLlzyLs7IArhgM_CQVisVjx4Asf3YoCeW4aKk1Y#Echobox=1561203238

I understand that this woman will not be able to care for a baby but cannot believe forcing her to have an abortion under any circumstances is appropriate, especially since she is already 22 weeks pregnant.

I am 100% pro choice, but this woman is having her choice taken away from her.

Pouncer, do you mean that if my health as a pregnant woman was at serious risk and I were 22 weeks pregnant, would I have an abortion? Yes I would. If, for example, my other children needed me to stay healthy and be a mother to them. An abortion at 22 weeks is a very rare event and happens in extreme circumstances. We don't know the full circumstances of this situation except that, thank goodness, a legal process has taken place to try to safeguard the interests of the pregnant woman involved.

I wonder how much of this is because the mother completely failed to protect her vulnerable daughter

I'm very sceptical about the mother's role in this.

The family have already failed to protect their child

Why is the mother getting blamed?
If a child gets sexually abused, is it the mother's fault?
We don't know what the care arrangements are but it's very likely that the mum isn't providing 24/7 care. She may well go to a care facility or even college. There's a good chance she has carers in the house. She might even have a degree of independence when she does not require supervision.

why has the grandmother allowed the poor girl to get to 22 weeks? She must have known her periods had stopped
You are assuming that this young woman is incapable of meeting her own menstrual needs and that there are no other carers involved.
You are also assuming that she didn't know. She may have known for a while now but it has taken time to get through appointments, social services and the court.

It shows how the notion of having a mental age is flawed and misleading.
I trust that the courts have made the best decision in this young woman's best interests. It's a heartbreaking story and they will clearly have to review her care requirements.

GrapefruitsAreNotTheOnlyFruit

Sure, now. Except that has not always been the case. Potential viability has inched earlier and earlier with medical advancement. So a couple decades ago 24 weeks would not have been viable. In 1920 unheard of. Would this decision have been okay to you then?

Laurajjj, none of these decisions are "comfortable". That's hardly the point, is it? The court has to take a decision in the best interests of the mother, and unfortunately there is no comfortable solution.

@SweetJasmine17

The young mother can't have contact with the baby. That's the point. The judgement implies that her mood issues make it likely she would hurt the baby, or worse. If the grandmother takes care of the baby, the mother will have to move out of the house because of the danger she would present to the baby.

An open adoption is out of the question.

And what if this was in another country without sufficient medical care where a fetus born at 24 weeks had no chance of survival? Would this be okay there?

They are all fairly shit options for the pregnant woman, aren’t they? Given that she was deemed to be not capable of looking after a baby but also a potential risk to it (having to be moved into care when the baby comes) the options are few:

a) have a termination and living arrangements unchanged
b) deliver at term and have the baby immediately taken away and living arrangements unchanged
c) have the baby and the maternal grandparent look after it but be forced into residential care thereafter

To me a) seems the least terrible option.

PouncerDarling just because its family weren't of good stock?

Please read the thread. That is most decidedly not why this decision was made. And I'd like to know why the needs* of the vulnerable mother are so easily ignored by all those arguing this way.

*Please note, this is a case where her needs do not align with her wishes. And her wish to be a mother could not be fulfilled.

I'd say that is more traumatic than the physical pain of birth.

Have you been through both?
Then you have no idea.

I have . Someone taking my baby (that I really wanted) away after (a not so straight forward) birth would've killed me. Especially since I was stuck in hospital for 4 days due to complications surrounded by other women and their newborns .

Despite being pretty much railroaded into an abortion (by the baby's grandma...still up for supporting her rights?) I was over it physically in two days and mentally it took me longer,but I did recover.

The Court of Protection has a pretty thankless job. Only the most complex and difficult cases make it to their court. They will deal with the most vulnerable people, and two very vocal sides which each have conflicting attitudes and, at least on one side, high emotions.

And of course everyone in the media and the general public will want to argue the judgment, because they make for interesting and emotional reading. Yet we don't even have a tiny proportion of the facts, because the CoP has to keep almost everything confidential.

Absolutely saraclara.

Thank you, I have read the thread. I have a different opinion to you, which is different to being vitally uninformed. The decision has been made because of the quality of the available parenting. So absolutely to do the family.

WHICH IS WHY THE COURT OF PROTECTION EXISTS

Sorry for yelling

I so feel your pain!

This case isn't about the rights and wrongs of abortion, early, late or otherwise.

It's about a young woman who lacks capacity and is therefore a vulnerable adult. The court of protection exists for her. The judgement is about what is least bad for her from a range of deeply unpalatable choices.

22 week abortions are legal in the UK and, sad as it is, the law covers this type of harrowing case. The rights and wrongs of 22 week abortions are not relevant here.

Yell away lang. You are right.

This case isn't about the rights and wrongs of abortion, early, late or otherwise.

It's about a young woman who lacks capacity and is therefore a vulnerable adult. The court of protection exists for her. The judgement is about what is least bad for her from a range of deeply unpalatable choices.

22 week abortions are legal in the UK and, sad as it is, the law covers this type of harrowing case. The rights and wrongs of 22 week abortions are not relevant here.

Exactly!

@FeministCat No I don't think it would have ever been a good idea to force a young woman with a moderate learning disability to have a late abortion against her wishes and those of her family barring the continuation of the pregnancy causing serious harm to her health.

I think however the age of viability influences my thinking in general about abortion. Before that stage I find it hard for example to understand at all the viewpoint of those who don't want any abortion at all even for reasons of the mothers health etc. I mean what do they think will happen to the fetus/baby anyway if the mother dies??? Also by the time the baby is properly viable I cant understand the justification for abortion. Anyway I am off on a slight tangent here.

I agree with you, grapefruits. It does make a difference how viable the pregnancy is.

No I don't think it would have ever been a good idea to force a young woman with a moderate learning disability to have a late abortion against her wishes and those of her family barring the continuation of the pregnancy causing serious harm to her health.

This is an adult who has been deemed to lack capacity to make choices for herself. In addition to a learning disability, she also is suggested to have a “mood disorder”. Due to privacy we have little idea what the impact of these combined may be, but we do know enough that she is deemed incapable of making decisions like this for herself.

Her wishes don’t have much play in here. Aside from “wishes” don’t equate to making an informed decision.

What if she wanted the abortion at 22 weeks, but her mother disagreed? What would your opinion about court’s involvement then be? Would it change if they ordered the abortion versus didn’t?

I agree with you, grapefruits. It does make a difference how viable the pregnancy is.

Why? The decision isn’t about whether to have an abortion or wait two more weeks for “viability” and then have her give birth to a baby that may or may not survive, and that is at high risk of lifelong medical complications.

It’s about whether to terminate or to carry to term and whether have baby adopted out or have the woman leave her home so her own mother can raise the baby as she is deemed unsafe to be around an infant.

This all comes down to..

"Bla bla bla bla bla..
.... as long as there's a baby at the end".

Fuck where the baby would end up,or the consequences for the mother, the effects of pregnancy and birth on her, the effects and consequences of it's conception and possible adoption on the baby.

We've got a live birth. Yay!

So hard to form an opinion.

My DS is learning disabled
I know different because he's the boy, but if he had a child with an equal, I would rather care for it them them be forced to terminate. But if there is no one to care for the child, then what. And what if the parents have genetic conditions that the child is likely to have?

Having a baby taken away is more distressing than a late term abortion. In this case the judge seems to have made the right decision

If you lack capacity your wishes or what you want are pretty meaningless if you've got to the COP and it's established you lack capacity. Getting to lack of capacity means a process has already been gone through, all avenues have been considered and the person who lacks capacity is now being considered with THEIR needs first and foremost, above everyone else.

YourSarcasmIsDripping

This all comes down to..Bla bla bla bla...
...as long as there's a baby at the end".

Spot on.