Girls and names for body parts - aibu?

[nightwakingquilt]

Probably should be in AIBU but I wanted the opinions of the feminism crowd in particular...

We've always taught my 7 yo daughter the correct anatomical names for her body - vulva, vagina, etc. A few days ago, when DD was off to the loo at a party, I was reminding her privately to wipe carefully after a poo so that the skin on her bottom and vulva didn't get sore (she sometimes still doesn't wipe very well and then ends up with irritated skin). Thought nothing of it until a while later a mum who I'm normally quite friendly with came up to me and took issue with this, saying she had overheard me, and her daughter didn't know that word, and she was deeply shocked as she had never heard of anyone who used that word to a child and then (!) quite literally went on to compare it to child abuse. I was so taken aback that I didn't quite know what to say and am now terrified of her going about telling other mums I'm some sort of sex abuser! Also pretty offended at this, and at being told it's inappropriate to have "taught her that word". It seemed to be particularly the use of "vulva" that she objected to - she said even vagina would be better despite being literally incorrect (DD knows the difference between the two and though we do also refer to "bits" or "private parts" in general, I was very specifically referring to the vulva rather than the vagina in my comment).

But this is ridiculous, right? It's perfectly rational and normal to use the anatomically correct terms, even if it's still not run of the mill? I mean they've all had their first lot of PSHE and as far as I know were taught the correct anatomical terms at school.

My mum always used the euphemistic "bottom" and it was horrendously confusing - you basically had to work it out from context which bit she meant. I'm not keen on it being seen as essentially dirty and shameful, either, which "bottom" implies; nor on calling it something daft like "tuppence". I did some research on this - partly on MN! - when DD was about 2 and as far as I recall it was actually considered good safeguarding practice to use the correct terms (as well as empowering and good for reducing stigma about the female body). Has this become really weird in the last couple of years, or is other mum just a nut? Wondering if anyone has any good resources on why it's good to teach your child the correct terms, so I can send them to her to prove I'm not some child-abusing weirdo?

I thought things had become a bit better over the last few years or so about this but clearly I'm wrong. Is the female body really still considered so shameful and inappropriate that a 7 yo knowing that her vulva is called a vulva is so outrageous?

[As an aside on a completely other note, DD reported to me that Young Woke Male TA corrected her during their PSHE lesson when she said that females have uteruses. "He said that not all people with uteruses are females, mummy, wasn't that silly of him?" Was glad to hear this week that Young Woke Male TA is off to another school...]

DD knows the word anus, but obviously the whole point of the issue is that "bottom" is a common easily understood term but there isn't the equivalent for the vulva. There isn't really the equivalent to "willy" either. So you either have to pick something cutesy, something offensive or something that's incorrect.

Treaclesweet yes in fact, they ask the children what body parts that girls and women have that boys and men don't and vice versa, that's part of their PSHE lessons. The school labelled an anatomical diagram with some of the main parts (obviously penis and vagina and so on, not everything). I can only think that other mum isn't aware that they've been doing this in PSHE. DD likes to chat about the content of her day/school lunch/lessons/who played with who in great detail so we hear a lot of what she does whereas maybe other mum doesn't.

Have used vulva since my daughter was born so by the time it meant anything to her I had got over my own weirdness at using it. The whole family, inc her big brother, now use it freely and she is able to tell me clearly exactly which bit of herself is sore.

Other mum is nuts and shouldn't have been earwigging on a private conversation.

And like someone else said - now I'm reconditioned I actually lile the word vulva and have a new appreciation for my own anatomy. It's only when you grt to that point that you realise how toxic and internalised misogyny really is.

*deconditioned. Not reconditioned!

Feeling a bit better. Having survived things I would not wish on my worst enemy, I have given dd a lesson about her body parts. I then got really worried (thank you someone on MN) that telling her about her bits made her more likely to be abused, rather than understanding her boundaries.

In Sweden, they deliberately invented and popularised a word (snippa) that was the female equivalent of willy.

www.theguardian.com/world/2015/aug/01/sweden-girls-genitals-feminist-invention-snippa-vagina

We should do the same here. How about "willa" -so you have willas and willies.

FWIW we call our genitals "girls bits" and "boys bits" on our house.

But I've also told DD "the science name" i.e. correct anatomical names, - if she mentions her girls bits, meaning her vulva, I sometimes ask - can you remember what the science name is? (In a light hearted way).

I don't feel the need to call her vulva, vulva all the time - many adults don't even know what a vulva is! But I think it's important to know the correct terms.

PPs who are saying oh, we all know the proper words for things like faeces and urinate and anus etc but we don't have to use them in public -
1.Many girls and women do not in fact know the proper names for their anatomy and this is down to stigma and shame

1. That means they don't have the choice of which word to use. And choice is key here
2. If you prefer to use a different word in public than private that's up to you, but it doesn't mean the OP should follow suit due to your shame and embarrassment about an anatomical word to describe your own body

Who's ashamed or embarrassed?
Is OP ashamed and embarrassed and that's why she uses "poo" and "bottom" instead of the correct terms, yet insists on using the correct term for vulva?

I think it's a bit rich to criticise others for not using the correct terms when you also use euphemisms yourself.

Is OP ashamed and embarrassed and that's why she uses "poo" and "bottom" instead of the correct terms, yet insists on using the correct term for vulva?

The problem is, there isn't a euphemism that means, specifically, vulva - can you name one?

There are tons, bus because they are euphemisms and not scientific terms, they don't specify "vulva and not vagina".

*but because

Although I think it is important that kids should know the correct medical (and unambiguous) terms for their bodies - especially girls as they can get genitourinary tract infections if they do not wipe correctly, and know what exactly they are wiping, and where it is on their body), I do think it is also really important that kids are also aware of what is private / appropriate, and what is not. I think there is too much that is private that is becoming too public - private sex lives etc (so sexuality being taught in schools, fetishes on display at Pride parades etc). I'm not a big fan of this modern thing of waving private stuff in public all the time and don't think that is particularly healthy either. So, yes to medical names in private, within the family, or when appropriate (such as biology lessons or PHSE lessons at school), but I think "privates" is a good word to describe genitals - as they are private, to that individual.

But yes YANBU. That woman sounds bonkers. You are having a private conversation with your daughter, and she should butt out.

This is why correct language is so important, even if not used all the time! A pp said that bottom means anus? But does it to everyone? My dcs know the word anus but we all generally use ‘poo-hole’ 😳. To me bottom means the general arse area and also includes buttocks. If someone went to the doc with ‘a sore bottom’ it could be their anus, a bruised coccyx, a pulled muscle...

Bottom and willy are understood to refer to anus and penis by almost everyone.

No, bottom to me means more general buttocks area. I guess you do say 'wipe your bottom' but we all say 'sit on your bottom' or 'I can see your bottom' or whatever. I think if I am referring specifically to the actual anus with my kids I would say 'bum hole' actually. But they do know 'anus' and what it means.

Still think it's odd to imply that anyone who doesn't use 'vulva' is somehow failing their kids, but not use anus or buttocks and use 'bottom' instead.

Bit off topic but this book is a regular 'bedtime story' in our house. Brilliant factual book and suitable for age 2 - 8 I would say.

www.amazon.co.uk/Who-Has-What-About-Bodies/dp/1406336777?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

However, it doesn't actually label 'vulva'. But it does give pretty good diagrams. And labels most other important stuff accurately.

My dd has known its her vulva and inside is vagina since she was 2 or 3. I can’t see any point of the cutesy terms. The other mum is nuts to be objecting to this!

She’s batshit , you’re getting it right.

I think use of the correct anatomical terminology is wholly appropriate.

However, surely if you have explained the reason for wiping carefully previously, all you needed to say was “Remember to wipe your bottom carefully”.

Going into the specific reasons for this, in the hearing of other parents seems unnecessary to me. You must have known others might find it odd.

The reaction of the other mum is indeed over the top though. It’s not remotely abusive to use that word.

The other woman is being ridiculous.

We used "vagina" rather than "vulva" because, although vagina isn't strictly accurate, in everyday parlance, people seem to use "vagina" to mean "vulva". I realise it's confusing, but as a PP said, it's like talking about "stomach ache" when you really mean "abdominal ache" or something. (You hear a surprising number of women referring to "the baby in my stomach".)

Keep using the correct terminology, for two reasons - the safeguarding ones already talked about but also so hopefully your daughter (as well as mine and many others!) will grow up free of hang ups about what their own body parts are called.

On a separate question (perhaps for @babdoc). My daughter is nearly 3, and we use vulva/vagina and have done since birth. It no longer feels weird and i find it less embarrassing to rely on correct words. Now she no longer wears a nappy it is pretty obvious she's touching her clitoris and likes the sensation. I don't want to give her any hang ups about her own body, so am encouraging her to understand public vs private places, and stopping her having a fiddle in public and saying you can do what you like in the privacy of your own room. My question is what age did you teach them the word clitoris as part of their anatomy? Funny that it is the only male/female body part that exists only for pleasure, which is why I'm so hesitant, as if I give it the anatomical name the next question will be "what's it for?" And that's when my response will be errrrrr......!

Tootsweet23, that’s culturally very interesting, isn’t it, from a feminist viewpoint? That you have reservations discussing something (in this case the clitoris) which is purely for female sexual pleasure.
The patriarchy has really done a number on us, if we’re embarrassed or ashamed to admit that women actually a) enjoy sexual pleasure, and b) are able to achieve it ourselves via masturbation.
How detailed an explanation you give your DD depends on their age and level of understanding, and your own comfort zone in discussing it.
You could perhaps start with a very basic “It’s fine to explore or rub yourself, but we do that in private, like peeing or pooing, not in public.”
If when your DD is a little older and asks a specific question such as what is it for, you can name it and say that it’s part of making it feel nice when mummies are making babies.
When they’re getting to the stage of approaching pre- puberty and you’re clueing them up on sanitary protection etc, they may well complain that it’s awful being female and having to cope with periods.
That’s the perfect opportunity to say “Well, there’s one huge advantage to being female- multiple orgasm!” And then give them the full details. My own DD, who is autistic and endearingly prone to oversharing information, came running downstairs to tell me in triumph when she managed her first one! We had a celebratory hug and biscuit...!

It’s not really anyone else’s business, how weird to pull you up for it. Everyone uses different words but it’s important that all children no the correct ones.

My daughter is 3, she knows and occasionally uses the correct anatomical terminology but most of the time just calls everything ‘bum’

However, surely if you have explained the reason for wiping carefully previously, all you needed to say was “Remember to wipe your bottom carefully”

Or even "remember to wipe"

Going into the specific reasons for this, in the hearing of other parents seems unnecessary to me. You must have known others might find it odd

Indeed.

@Babdoc thank you! That is great advice.

Yes, this whole process of parenting has opened my eyes even more how the patriarchy relies on internalised self policing. When a boy does the same, I think a) it is acceptable to name the anatomy as it is also used for peeing and b) is is expected and accepted that boys fiddle with their phallic members all their lives.