Councillor wants Mayor to make all toilets gender neutral

[Comingtoatownnearyou]

Local paper today:

www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/mayor-quizzed-gender-neutral-toilets-16437625

I am planning on writing to the Mayor to be vocal in my objections, but I may need some guidance as well please.

Traditionally toilets have been gender specific, divided into two categories: male and female.

First of all I will make it very clear that they have been divided by SEX.

make a start by designating all council building toilets as gender-neutral.

I guess this is where I need to start quoting the Equality Act? and that it is a legitimate aim to separate by sex. I am also going to quote the (2011) cenus figures about the diversity of the town and the significantly high Muslim population.

I understand, clearly, there will be some concerns from some councillors and members of the public but the risk does not increase once public toilets become gender neutral.

In fact, if anyone has any intention in committing a crime at present, they will do so.

This is about creating a much more safer environment for transgender and non binary people.

The first really is not true is it? and the last is just about getting women to suck it up

I am having lots of thoughts that I will keep to myself.

I do have a lot of respect for Ellie though, I don't necessarily agree with all of her viewpoints but she is always fairly respectful when voicing them.

Oh! Was he the 'kid' who was so scared of the husband of a woman he peaked at that he begged to be let out the back door?

borderline personality disorder ? Not sure that one flys either!

Lelly whenever there is a male cleaner in the women's toilets there is a sign clearly stating this. Why do you think that is?

No, Curious.

That was another one this week. Still in Scotland though.

www.dunfermlinepress.com/news/17698951.naked-woman-caught-perv-spying-on-her-at-carnegie-leisure-centre/?ref=mr&lp=6

Seems like a lot of pervs in Scotland are getting very emboldened these days. Almost as though a climate of trespassing the boundaries of women and girls has been created by the Scottish government. And a certain element are taking full advantage.

Remember though - it never happens.

Good news then! The toilets are already gender neutral - females of any gender can use the female toilets, and males of any gender can use the male ones.

Jebus, no personal experience of what Teeside is like now, but growing up we weren't far from the area and the reputation for prostitution and drugs preceded it. Have they really cleared it up so effectively that this is now the only pressing issue for the council?

Juells: I can't understand this either. Why do people choose to make themselves objects of ridicule, then complain that they're not safe? How is it helping them?

Exactly this. They claim it isn’t a choice, but a choice is exactly what it is.

The choice may be pushed by medics, but they too have a choice.

And if the choice IS to transition, then the medics who push it need to take responsibility for any increased problems the patient has navigating through life.

It’s obvious to almost all mentally healthy people that the majority of male people who transition will never pass. That information, and all the difficulties that go with it, needs to be explained in full prior to treatment, and the patient should have access to additional psychological help to deal with the problems that continue afterwards, for life if necessary.

This is not something that should be thrust on society (and women in particular) to deal with.

So where is the risk?

Girl goes to the toilet, bloke follows her in. Social convention dictates that this is not normal and people would intervene to point the man to the correct toilet and ensure the girl was not in danger.
Under mixed sex provision the male would be entitled to be there so his presence could not be questioned. Still not get it? This is a massive safety issue.

So what difference will the type of cubicle make to the girls safety if a man can follow her into the toilets?

A little more insight into the man in question

www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/tory-councillor-says-sorry-rotten-16446676

There has been a real drive of Independents in the town, whilst I think some independents are positive and do a good job and are passionate about what they do, there is a significant number whose manifestos are basically to 'please everyone', but in doing that they will please no-one.

Uncommon Ground Media have just published an article on the importance of women’s toilets:

uncommongroundmedia.com/flushing-womens-toilets/

sigh

www.itv.com/news/tyne-tees/2019-06-22/middlesbrough-to-trial-gender-neutral-toilets/

Apollo440
So what difference will the type of cubicle make to the girls safety if a man can follow her into the toilets?

I’d prefer for the status quo to remain. However just relabelling existing toilets as gender-neutral is much riskier for women because they usually consist of cubicles in a room, often with a substantial door, away from passing foot traffic. You come out of the cubicles into the hand washing area. So it’s much easier for an attack to be perpetrated without other people being aware.

Sometimes public toilets can be empty when you go in and that can give some offenders the confidence to pounce. Other times they can be very noisy. I wouldn’t rule out the possibility of someone hiding in a cubicle and waiting for someone to enter and attack them then. Women and girls can be intimidated to keep quiet, especially if threatened. Muffled cries can go unheard. Whereas the fully enclosed toilets make voyeurism more difficult, and often they open on to corridors or areas with foot traffic because the hand washing facilities are inside them. They are, and feel less, secluded, and that will put off many potential attackers.

He looks like someone I’d love share a toilet with.

Yes I know we shouldn’t comment on people’s appearance, but heyho.

"This is about creating a much more safer environment for transgender and non binary people."

Fuck the safety of women!

Why are there so many of these weird-looking middle-aged men who are desperate to bring about a situation where they can share toilets with women and girls?

courtnewsuk.co.uk/?s=voyeurism

Having thought about it a bit more, this is perhaps the best way forwards. Taking over the disabled toilets is not the answer at all, but as this is often little more than virtue signalling it actually is unlikely to have much, if any impact, I mean it would be interesting to know how many individuals who identify as transgender actually have genuinely felt unsafe when using a toilet, I feel safe most of the time, but sometimes I don't. Many women avoid public toilets all together. Feeling unsafe/ uncomfortable is not unusual.

And if they now push for more, then it is clear that it isn't just about wanting to feel safe, it is about wanting access. Maybe it is a shrewd move on part of the mayor.

(Sorry in my op I didn't make it clear that this is an elected mayor rather than just a ceremonial one)

Since men do not share the same risk of physical violence that are part of the life experiences of women and girls it would make sense that if any toilets are to become mixed sex it would be the male toilets. Hide the urinals behind a wall at the far end, and replace the Men's toilet sign on the door with one that says Gender Neutral.

Leave the disabled and women's toilets as they are. Of course the men who want access to female spaces for validation, or for all the other even more nefarious reasons we've seen discussed on this thread won't be happy, but they'll just have to re-educate themselves and learn to cope.

Glad I re-read this thread.

With all the rage about Olly Alexander -Years & Years -@ Glastonbury,

I went back and Listened to his interviews where he says that a trans-women are women and should be allowed to use the toilet.

IME its not just adults that are a problem. Ive never been a fan of mixed sex toilets since first year at primary school (in the 1970s). A boy in my class repeatedly followed me into my cubicle (no locks on the doors) and made me touch him. I think he was expelled as I told my parents and have a memory of a teacher following him into the toilets, finding us both in the same cubicle and shouting quite a lot and then he never came back to school.

So, theres a risk for you.

twitter.com/TheNorthernEcho/status/1148920529493155840?s=19

Middlesbrough Council to trial to gender neutral toilets - feminist campaigner says women have 'a right to single sex spaces' t.co/Dw7wNlNwuU

I don't understand why they can't just add on a few extra toilets that are GN. I know it would cost money but at least everyone would be 'happy' and have somewhere to go where they're comfortable (good for the long-term). Women can use the women's, men can use the men's, disabled use disabled and anyone not falling into that category of biologically being male/female/people who don't care, can use a GN toilet.

I've been to plenty of gay bars where all the toilets are GN and it works well in there- purely because there's security and they're adamant that two people cannot use the same toilet. Even groups of friends have to go in one at a time. Plus, it's busy so there will always people around to step in if necessary. Anyone who flaunts the rules immediately gets chucked out or the police called on them, depending on what has happened.

I'd like to hope that that would be a good solution for everyone, and I'd be annoyed if someone wasn't happy with that because they weren't being treated as a 'real woman'. I've had a s. assault happen on me in the past and I wouldn't feel comfortable with men using the same communal toilet as me, regardless if they were biological or transitioning. I'd only feel comfortable if it was busy and I had a friend or partner with me.

From the article in the OP.

"I understand, clearly, there will be some concerns from some councillors and members of the public but the risk does not increase once public toilets become gender neutral.

"In fact, if anyone has any intention in committing a crime at present, they will do so.

"This is about creating a much more safer environment for transgender and non binary people."

So they're saying that a change from single sex to mixed sex doesn't increase the risk for women (so there is no risk to women from having to share the toilets with men). But then they say that the risk is decreased for trans and non binary people if the toilets are mixed sex.

What risk is there for trans and non binary people in having to use single sex toilets which suddenly disappears when the toilets become mixed sex?

Make all the gents unisex then and leave the women’s as is.

Thank you for the link to that article sunset, it's a really great analysis and points out the farce of able bodied men deciding what's right for women and people with disabilities.

I know that the author is potentially risking many things by publishing this piece, including her job but it's so far been well received.