US policemen threaten to shoot black mother dead

[Erythronium]

This is one of the most distressing things I have ever seen on Twitter. Policemen threaten to shoot a mother because she can't put her baby down and put her hands up.

twitter.com/SJPeace/status/1139533347280039937

Racism and misogyny in their full horror. The KKK has obviously been recruiting in US police forces.

There's a very interesting sub on Reddit called r/Protectandserve. It's run by cops to discuss their lives, duties and incidents. Non-police also put articles and stories on there for discussion, and it has to be said, baiting police at times. This story appeared on there, complete with video recently.

I am not police, I am not American. I don't condone in any way what these cops did. But you have to appreciate two things. The first is that different forces across the US have very different training and selection processes. Often it's poorly paid, hence you don't always get a high calibre of candidate. Training periods can be measured in weeks, not months or years.

Secondly, they live in a hugely different society to the rest of us Anglophones. Almost everyone has the potential to be armed. Imagine walking up to a scene where you have minimal information, and some random person can pull a gun on you. It must be terrifying.

I've got close friends in the UK who have many decades of police service between them. None of them have had to face that daily threat. They don't have the fear that every perp and suspect they face has a gun on them. The effect that that must have on you, year after year must take its toll. And yet, and yet....whenever I ask those cops that run the subreddit, nobody ever wants to restrict gun ownership. So it just perpetuates this atmosphere of paranoia, suspicion and terror on both sides. They have a huge societal problem, but not enough people actually see it as a problem.

I doubt this idiot will be severely punished. The police over there are allowed (so it has been explained tome anyway) to use deadly force if they believe that life is threatened. That is all he has to say.

And for the avoidance of doubt, this cop is an idiot who has neither the attitude nor the braincells to hold that position. He isn't suitable. But I'm judging him by non-US standards. To his fellow officers, he was a bit over the top. Maybe.

@Backwoodsgirl you were attacked several times here by people with guns were you? 🙄

"Imagine walking up to a scene where you have minimal information, and some random person can pull a gun on you. It must be terrifying."

Do you really think he was terrified that a family including a baby and a pregnant woman were about to shoot him? Do you think he would have done that to a white family in an SUV, in a nice neighbourhood? Or do you think that there might be something else at play here, namely the colour of their skin?

If you're that scared, don't do the job.

Absolutely there can be racism. It's entirely possible here. It looks awful.

But white people get shot. Everyone gets shot over there. As Sadiq Kahn is often misquoted, it's part and parcel. Does the UK police force have a racism problem? Yes, according to their own investigations. Do UK police face guns on a daily basis? No. I know where I'd rather live.

Don't start trying to imply I'm minimising this. It's the opposite. It's a far bigger problem that institutional racism. It's deadly paranoia on a societal scale.

"Everyone gets shot over there."

Yes, and twice as many black people get shot, and those who do are often teenagers.

Let's not pretend it's not a racial problem, please.

If anyone has the time and inclination, have a read of r/Protectand serve. It's a real eye-opener as to how these people think.

Any why write 'Let's not pretend it's not a racial problem, please.' when my first two sentences were 'Absolutely there can be racism. It's entirely possible here.' What could you possibly achieve apart from starting an argument where there isn't one?

I'm aghast at how short the training is in the US, BackwoodsGirl mentioned her police officer friends had 16 weeks training in comparison to 5 weeks in other states/ counties. Really?? No wonder they have officers who are clearly not up to the task of protecting the public.

It's absolutely shocking isn't it? How can they think that that is enough training??!! Where I live police have to do at least a 3 year degree (bachelors) in policing (they can also carry on to a masters in policing) in a specially dedicated police university college. Police are armed and gun ownership is fairly high here but police shooting someone is very rare, and shooting to kill is even rarer.

That video is sickening

This comment by @Backwoodsgirl is scary - The interaction was a little unprofessional and heavy handed.

You really thing that the police officers conduct was acceptable. I’m trying to find reliable data as to the educational and training these officers will have had. Being a decent human being obviously isn’t a requirement. Why has nothing changed since Sandy Hook?

*Everyone gets shot over there."

Yes, and twice as many black people get shot, and those who do are often teenagers.

Let's not pretend it's not a racial problem, please."

Again, just one example I'm no longer sure I believe that:

They were at the bloody $ store. So so sad.
I read the transcription of events on a letter someone on the Twitter feed posted.

It states they will get a settlement, was disgusting to read. The mother was clearly pregnant and refused to put her child on the floor not only because it couldn’t walk but because the pavement was hot.

I've finally watched with the sound. Wow. If you can watch that video without experiencing anger, revulsion, a deep sense of injustice...I don't think you have any humanity. @Backwoodsgirl if you think this is appropriate law enforcement and your police officer friends believe that there's even a chance this was acceptable conduct, then you are so brainwashed that you don't know what's safe and what's not, and your friends are 100% not fit for their jobs. For a start, those officers are acting in anger. They have lost self control. They are practically slavering and trying desperately to whip up a situation where they get to fire their weapons. They are the only ones screaming and swearing and inflaming the situation, despite the terrified efforts of the mother and other suspect to calm the situation. A pregnant mother (not behaving violently, not holding a weapon, not even committed a crime it seems) should NOT have to beg a screaming police officers not to point a gun at her babies. Their behaviour is wildly unprofessional and they lack any skills in terms of de-escalating or assessing a situation. What they are doing would be criminal elsewhere in the world. I know I am safer than you are because this simply does not happen in the UK. If this ever did happen in the UK (not possible because police don't routinely carry firearms and don't have to fear that members of the public are doing so) then those officers would be sacked and facing criminal charges.

Wow. If you can watch that video without experiencing anger, revulsion, a deep sense of injustice...

I couldn’t even watch it all. Too many emotions.
Will try a bit more later.

I was attacked several times in the UK

I’m gonna call you out on a lie here. If you did have a gun during these fake attacks, would you have killed them then? Jfc americans are so weird about their guns. The whole world thinks it’s nuts.

That statement sounds like utter bullshit to me!

If the officers thought they were really pursuing criminals why not pull them over properly? Why weren't they using their bodycams (which is supposedly standard procedure there)? Why didn't they file a report immediately? Nah load of bollocks!!

Full of deflection, lies and nonsense!

BackwoodsGirl

"I carry not because I feel I need to in order to be safe, I carry because I can." Bullshit you carry "just because"

To be perfectly honest it sounds like you may well be suffering from PTSD, which while I sympathise, makes you even less fit to carry a firearm as you're mind isn't going to assess danger rationally. Were you assessed before being allowed to get it?

Get therapy lose the gun.

Goosefoot - exactly property is valued above life there.

"The first is that different forces across the US have very different training and selection processes. Often it's poorly paid, hence you don't always get a high calibre of candidate. Training periods can be measured in weeks, not months or years." Then this should be addressed not used as an excuse.

"Secondly, they live in a hugely different society to the rest of us Anglophones. Almost everyone has the potential to be armed. Imagine walking up to a scene where you have minimal information, and some random person can pull a gun on you. It must be terrifying." Then again that fact must be addressed, the almost complete lack of gun control there is unnecessary and irresponsible. "But...constitution..." Bollocks! They've changed the constitution in other ways, indeed the part of the constitution that supposedly provided this is an AMENDMENT in itself. The law COULD be changed but the govt there is far too beholden to arms manufacturers, NRA etc it's fucked up!

"If you're that scared, don't do the job." Exactly.

Prejudice generally comes from irrational fear too (plus entitlement of course).

The entry requirements are minimal

www.phoenix.gov/police/joinphxpd/application-requirements

20 weeks academy training then straight onto patrol training.

Woefully inadequate in my opinion and it seems they're struggling to recruit which may be why the entry requirements etc are so lax.

Yeanahyea - you and that tv host somehow managed to find the one black man in America who not only doesn't believe in the FACT that racism exists there but who seems to be weirdly racist against people of his own race! That's some prize winning denial going on there!

This is shocking behaviour the UK police are in no way perfect but they certainly don't behave like this.
A few years ago I parked up at the local toddler group, what I hadn't realised is the police car behind me was actually following me. When I got out of the car they calmly asked to speak to me about my car, they couldn't find it on their database (it's on fleet insurance so sometimes it takes a few phone calls to find)
I had my DD in my arms I asked if I could take her indoors to a friend then come back to them which they allowed me to do.
It took several phone calls and half an hour to prove I was insured and had a right to drive the car at no time did they shout at me or threaten me.

When I was 17 a friend asked for a lift home for him and his friend I vaguely knew. It was late as we went into their estate we were pulled over by the police & all asked to get out of the car. We were asked our names and the friend of the friend lied about his name but was clearly recognised by the police, he was actually wanted for something & they arrested him. Again at no point we're we shouted at our treated like we were criminals because of him, in fact again they were extremely polite and sent us on our way (I never gave a lift to someone I didn't know again!).

With both incidents if I'd been in the US I'd probably have been threatened or shot, although I'm white so maybe not.

I once saw a group of late teens/early twenties men absolutely stoned out of their trees on the beach in Miami get arrested. They were just sitting around chatting and singing. Police arrived and started screaming, shouting, swearing (behaviour similar to this video) and totally blew the situation out of all proportion. The group were compliant throughout and remained calm and placatory in spite of the aggressive, disproportionate and completely unprofessional behaviour of the police. There were several people nearby with children and the behaviour of the officers, effing and blinding at the top of their voices, was frightening. The stoned kids were roughly bundled into a police vehicle despite the fact that they would most probably have walked in very willingly if asked and given the opportunity. The whole scene was extremely shocking to me and upsetting to bystanders. When police behave like this routinely, they are failing in their duty to keep people safe. How on earth could anybody trust violent thugs like this? I would be very reluctant to approach US police for help and having kids myself now, I am increasingly of the opinion that it's just not a safe place to travel to. I have seen too many of these videos and witnessed the behaviour first hand. I don't think it's out of the ordinary over there. 16 weeks is a wholly inadequate training period, especially if you're going to load these people up with firearms.

I know that the UK police force is not perfect, and there are some bad apples of course, but on the whole I genuinely believe our police officers can be trusted to behave with professionalism and that their priority is to help the public and keep us safe. I certainly have never been afraid to approach a police officer in the UK.

ive been raised to trust the police. As a teenager my interactions were at times questionable. To be frank I've heard , many things that make me question my (taught) trust in them.

1. an officer with family ties to the force was encouraged to hand over his firearm due to his reporting of his own fathers sexual abuse of the granddaughter. Grandfather in a high ranking position.

2. the same officer was at times a supervisor of a recruit who I've known for a long time prior to his enrolment in the force. This man has very violent behaviour and has a diagnosis of schizophrenia. Still originally approved to carry weapon. The officer expressed that this recruit may need to rethink his career plan.

This story is now on Sky News

Just to compare this has also hit the news in the last few days.

In particular, watch how the cops treat the suspect at the end.

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/dramatic-rescue-five-month-old-16512820

Yeahnahyeah

*Everyone gets shot over there."

Yes, and twice as many black people get shot, and those who do are often teenagers.

Let's not pretend it's not a racial problem, please."

Again, just one example I'm no longer sure I believe that:
youtu.be/phPXTWJhnYM

This is the famous Larry Elder clip where he changed Dave Rubin's mind on " Systematic racism"
Not too sure you watched it before posting.

Having had this discussion 're the lack of proper training for police officers in the US with someone who has trained police in a number of democratic countries, yes, it's true that all police forces have issues.

Systemic racism, sexism, homophobia etc at varying levels of severity and frequency are just some of the issues police forces worldwide have indeed been grappling with for decades, to differing levels of success.

However, police forces in the US have a self-inflicted problem very few other countries share and that is the lack of training, the lack of education, the low calibre of candidates, the extreme decentralisation of the police forces and their chronic, severe underfunding.

Much of the training time also has to be spent on drumming into the police candidates that suspects have both human rights and civil rights. (Neither a joke nor an overstatement.)

There are almost 18,000 different police forces at city, state and federal level. They all have different rules, different entry and training requirements, different funding, different uniforms and equipment.

These factors combined mean there are huge differences in the quality of police officers across the US. They also mean that there is an overabundance of personalities unsuited to law enforcement work. That's what happens without central oversight holding everyone accountable to the exact same standards.

And no, the latter does not solve, avoid or prevent all problems but it reduces them to a minimum. And yes, even in the US, the majority of police officers are decent, law abiding citizens who seek to do their jobs properly and without treating suspects like the family in that video was treated.

But once you add in the fact that any simple traffic stop, any knock on a door, anything at all can get a police officer shot without provocation, even the decent ones have too much to deal with sometimes.

So, these incidents will keep on happening because they are not individual, isolated failures of an otherwise well designed system, but the natural byproduct of a more than usually flawed one.

Holy shit I watched this with tears running down my face. I am pregnant and if this happened to me I would’ve went into early labour with this amount of abuse and gun pointing.

Poor poor lady. This should be attempted murder.

Imagine walking up to a scene where you have minimal information, and some random person can pull a gun on you.

So obviously this pregnant woman has 3 arms or something? Given she was holding a baby and her daughters hand, how was she supposed to be able to pull her hidden gun and shoot the officer otherwise?

you and that tv host somehow managed to find the one black man in America who not only doesn't believe in the FACT that racism exists there but who seems to be weirdly racist against people of his own race! That's some prize winning denial going on there!

I don't think I'd use racism to describe a person who thinks there are problems in his own community. He's actually a pretty well known conservative commentator. Not the only one with similar views either. I don't totally agree with his approach but I do think his point about forces and communities and officers that are black themselves is significant, they do seem to still have the same kinds of problems. Are they just somehow suffering from false consciousness? I am not satisfied with that as a go-to explanation.

You can also find black commentators or academics on the left who don't think that police violence is attributable to racism in the way the progressive left typically claims. They seem to look at it from the perspective of other factors, like socioeconomic class, and see explanations there. Class of course it related to race, but that's a more complex interaction that just calling it racism.

There is also an interesting book, the name escapes me now, by an American academic which suggests that one of the reasons for the strong police measures in many black neighbourhoods beginning in the 60s was (and I think he may say still is) the demand by the black residents, who become fed up with crime and demand increased policing as a matter of racial justice, and that this has resulted in a relatively increased set of interactions in those neighbourhoods between police and young black men.

The video shows some unhinged men doing crappy police work, but is is about racism, we have no clear idea. But we do know a lot about the factors involved in policing problems there.