Use of trans identified male as opposed to transwoman.

[happydappy2]

MNHQ There has been much written recently about how the controlling of the words we use, is very misleading. Many women reject the word transwoman as it can be misunderstood. In light of this, would you reconsider yr guidelines that Trans Identified Male can not be used? It would seem a more factually accurate description of a human male who presents in a stereotypically female way. Thank you.

happydappy2

But those are the rules of MN. Why post here if you don't agree with the rules?

And if you don't want MN to police words that you like but others don't, then you also have to accept MN allowing words that you don't like but others do.

For those concerned for women affected by male violence (at its most extreme)

current thread with details of important event for women riding for murdered women in September

organised by Jean Hatchet details from WPUK:
(extract)
"Women will also ride from exercise bikes in their own homes. Women will ride from around the world. Women will ride alone at the same time. Women will use wheelchairs, trikes or even push a bike if they cannot ride one. All will carry a murdered woman’s name with them. All will carry the weight of her death in their hearts. All will be women.

It is absolutely vital that this mass bike ride will be women-only. It is essential to the project that we acknowledge the sexed nature of this crime. It is vital that statistical integrity is attached to the figures. Men murder women because they are women.

In objection to the fact that I have said that only women will ride, today I had a man offer to strangle me. He negotiated his price openly with another man on the internet. The first man had stated he would pay for someone to shove my bike down my throat.

My crime? To say that a ride for murdered women would be attended only by other women. Women have to be allowed to self-organise. There are times when this is the right thing to do. " (continues)

womansplaceuk.org/2019/06/15/ride-for-murdered-women-a-female-peloton/

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3612439-women-only-mass-bike-ride

Oh, in reference to my last post, 'trans identifying as non binary' would not give any information regarding natal sex but just that their natal sex not what they identify with..

decomposing anyone is entitled to ask MNHQ to re look at rules that were introduced under extreme pressure from TRAs, whilst not asking for womens points of view.

happydappy2

Who is compelling you to use the term transwoman? You are being asked not to use a specific term that the people you are describing consider offensive.

Would you use the N word or the P word? I'm guessing that any decent person wouldn't because the people concerned consider those words to be offensive and so they are no longer used (apart from the reclamation of the N word in certain circumstances). Following your argument anyone should be able to use the N word if they so choose and people of colour should have no right to object because it's only up to the speaker to decide what is offensive?

Dr Julia Long concludes:

if we name men as men we can name their male behaviour and we can see that what they are doing is claiming to be women and that they are demanding recognition and rights on that totally false premise. And then we can develop a critique of their behaviour, of their male entitlement, their male fantasy and their misogyny. But what they're doing, rather sneakily, is by making these claims around identity they are moving their behaviour beyond critique. They're - you know, as soon as you say something's my identity you can't critique it because it's my identity. And, I will finish with this one, and as Karla Mantilla said in a very prescient essay she wrote back in 2000, identity politics is a stealth manoeuvre that demands in the name of tolerance, but now increasingly in the name of equality, because we don't [inaudible] about transgender equality, that others do not challenge my politics. So by claiming a certain identity I can then demand that no-one, in the name of equality, that no-one can challenge my behaviour.

pastebin.com/nGwr3i4U

Huge thanks to Dr Julia Long for this important, though challenging analysis.
Also to PencilsinSpace for her fanstastic transcription skills & efforts.

Women need to be able to consider & discuss complex ideas and in my opinion, reasoned civil debate about central feminist theories should certainly not be hampered on a board specificall focussed on feminism & women's rights.

The only reason I can think of for compelling women to use transwoman, rather than another phrase, is to avoid hurting mens feelings. Is this your view? That we should prioritise mens feelings over womens realities?

No, I’d say we should use the phrase because it is the correct definition and noun for a male to female transsexual.

Let’s flip this.

‘The only reason I can think of for compelling transwoman to use the word woman rather than cis is to avoid hurting feminists feelings. Is this your view?’

Of course that’s a load of crap. We call woman, woman, because by definition, an adult human female is a woman. And woman want to be called woman, not cis, not cervix havers or menstraters or anything but woman. And that is the definition of them, that is the noun that we are so of course that should be respected.

Respect goes both ways.

so if anyone is entitled to ask mumsnet to relook at the rules can I post a thread asking to reconsider cs and t*f and that we then debate that and ask for a responce from mumsnet. that is the equivalent argument to this thread. what do you think would happen if I did that and what do you think people would say. no one likes being told what other people want to call you when you state you are not something.

Interesting to observe how some posters do not appear to understand/acknowledge the importance of power dynamics.

These are very important in feminist theory.

We really should have some sort of a bingo card for control pattern behaviours.

rowan I agree, I’ve already started one it includes:

• you’re a man
• you hate woman
• you’re a TRA
• you’re a handmaiden
• you just Care about men
• you want to silence woman
• no woman could think the way you do

Maybe we should create an excel spreadsheet?

Personally bespin my answer would be go ahead.

I don't think any words should be banned. I'd be interested to hear your reasoning as to why you think they are helpful terms.

R0wantrees

it's amazing how much self awareness some posters have around highlighting control patterns while undertaking in controlling behaviours to police a thread.

there already is a bingo card for that behaviour on here.

decomposing As I have said upthread, but you chose to ignore, there are several ways in which to describe a male transexual. Transwoman being one, trans identified male being another. Other media outlets routinely use male who identifies as transgender-that is what I am specifically asking MNHQ to also allow us to use here, on this forum that is for Mothers. Why would you not wish a group of Mothers to be able to communicate in a clear and accurate way? Using the N word is in no way comparable to using male who identifies as trans.

Bespin go ahead and start that thread-I don't think you'll get much interest though. Its not popular.

dancingcamper

I would not do that as hope that I realise that it would upset people and seen as provocative to some. I would want to know that as its used by quite a lot of people and is the scientific opersite to trans so based in reality then why people would object to someone using it. also as t**f is a word coined by gender critical people why they now object to it as its been twisted or used in a dirigatroy way and don't wish to take it back like we did wirb queer.

Interesting to observe how some posters do not appear to understand/acknowledge the importance of power dynamics.

It's very interesting to observe how some posters insist on dismissing any examples that show up their arguments for what they are.

We have lots of words that are considered offensive because the people that they were used against have expressed that and so we now, as a society, accept that.

Why is this any different? People have said that certain words are offensive and asked that they aren't used. Why not just accept that and move on? What really are you hoping to achieve? If you insist on using names to describe others that they find offensive then you really have no leg to stand on when they start calling women cervix Havers or whatever.

Using the word transwoman allows all of the differentiation from women that you want - for the purposes of reporting crime etc so I just cannot see why you object, apart from the claim that some people may not understand the term. Yet that is a risk with a lot of words - should we stop using those in case some people don't understand them?

what do you think would happen if I did that and what do you think people would say

I don't like the words cs and t*f but I wouldn't even consider harassing or bullying MNHQ to start policing your language and impose restrictions and bans on using them.

I don't much care for restricting terms, but I will say that the concept of 'cis' - that the woman identifies and therefore accepts the means of her oppression by gender - is a philosophical idea, like a heretic or an unbeliever, and objecting to it is not the same as objecting to being called male when you are in fact a male, even if you don't want to be.

One is objecting to an imposed philosophical idea. One is objecting to a material fact.

People have said that certain words are offensive and asked that they aren't used. Why not just accept that and move on?

Many of us have said that words such as 'transwoman' and 'cis' are offensive, and have asked that they aren't used. Why not just accept that and move on?

happydappy2

For starters, this isn't a site for mothers. There are plenty of contributors who aren't mothers.

Secondly, just because you don't want to use the term transwoman doesn't mean that you need to use trans identifying male - a term that has specifically been identified as being offensive, so why persist? And yes in that regard it is comparable to the N word. The N word is considered offensive by the people that it was used to describe. It wasn't up to the people using that word to decide if it was offensive or not, it was up to the people being described by it. The same in this case. It's not up to us to say that trans identifying...is not offensive because it doesn't apply to us. The people that it is aimed at find it offensive and so we have been asked not to use it.

Gosh R0wantrees.

I imagine most people pretty much know that you have a computer sized brain, and how helpful your references are.

Your knowledge of coercive control is also extensive. As it is your unerring ability to identify it.

Thanks for this thread. Fascinating indeed.