Would a move back to single sex education help our girls?

[BalletBunting]

I've been meditating on this recently - particularly seeing reports of the shocking levels of sexual harassment girls experience at school, as well as seeing the levels of gender stereotyping both my DC (one of each) have experienced since they were born. It made me wonder whether a move back to more single sex schools (for secondary at least) could actually have a positive effect on children of both sexes (and girls in particular)

Less sexual harassment, less stereotyping and as I understand the research shows that children do better in single sex environments, where they don't feel they need to 'perform' for the opposite sex. It also means that difficulties of puberty including hormones, menstruation etc can be dealt with in what might feel like a more safe environment.
Thoughts?

I guess it is a good thing to spend time without these stereotypes 7 hours a day, if this is the case in single-sex schools.

My issue is that surely by its very nature, single-sex education is predicated on gender stereotypes.

My issue is that surely by its very nature, single-sex education is predicated on gender stereotypes.

Depends very much on the school. Yes, there were schools which aimed to turn out "good wives and mothers" with an emphasis on domestic science and needlework, but many, many girls schools (for instance the one I went to) were set up with the explicitly feminist ethos of giving girls access to just as good an education as boys.

I personally feel that single sex education, especially in the secondary school, would be particularly beneficial for girls especially in encouraging them to take up STEM subjects and help them excel in quantitative examinations.
There is an unconscious bias, sometimes even among the teachers, that makes them believe that males would perform better than females in quantitative subjects and therefore males would be unconsciously encouraged more than females in these subjects. This bias is easily removed in single sex education.

@PCohle Why do you think the argument for single sex education for girls is based on gender stereotypes?

For me it's based partly on biological facts and actual reality e.g its boys that overwhelming sexually assault girls rather than vice versa. It's also based on the existence of stereotypes rather than their validity.

My reasons for girls only education (primarily in the 11 to 16 age group)

Girls are safe from sexual harassment in school.

Girls can get used to their changing bodies and periods away from boys who have different bodies

Girls can pursue things like computing clubs and physics free from the pressure to conform to stereotypes because at a girls school all the people who partake in these activities will be girls.

Girl's sport will be more likely to be valued by the school because it's the only type of sport there will be at the school.

For me it's based partly on biological facts and actual reality e.g its boys that overwhelming sexually assault girls rather than vice versa.

I have a problem with the idea that sex segregation is the answer to sexual assault though. If it's effective in the school context why not expand it to workplaces, transport etc? I think it smacks of victim blaming and shifts responsibility to women and parents to avoid the risk of assault. Girls should expect their mixed sex schools to be safe.

It's also based on the existence of stereotypes rather than their validity.

I think saying to girls, for example, "lots of people think subjects like computing and physics are just for boys, and that stereotype is so all pervasive and powerful that the only way to free you from it is to educate you separately from men" necessarily lends a degree of validity to stereotypes.

So does implicitly telling girls that if they were educated alongside men no one would care about their sporting achievements.

Teaching women "gender stereotypes aren't real but just in case we've segregated you along the lines of sex" just seems bizarrely counterintuitive to me.

Girls should expect their mixed sex schools to be safe

They should but they’re not. That’s the reality.

I went to co-ed and always thought I would send DC to co-ed. Then I met women who had gone to single sex and realised how much more they had achieved by the confidence instilled in them by single sex - you can do anything. I, while extremely bright, was hampered by being told oh that's only for boys in my school. DC went to co-ed for junior school and are now single sex for secondary. Both, my very focused DD and my erratic DS are thriving in their new single sex schools. I have found the teachers in each school teach to the strengths of each sex and as a psychologist I know there are differences in how adolescent boys and girls learn - as well as my DD being so relieved she did not have to deal with her first periods around loads of boys.

Both my DC have loads of friends and activities with people of the opposite sex and I am very confident that we made the right decision.

BTW, my DC are in private schools and in Ireland most second level private schools are single sex.

gender stereotypes aren't real but just in case we've segregated you along the lines of sex

It’s good nobody is doing that then, especially as it doesn’t make sense. Gender stereotypes exist, they are real, it’s just they’re stupid and not true. It’s more that some are saying, ‘ because most of society goes along with stereotypes, we are going to give you the best chance of avoiding them in your important learning years’.

They should but they’re not. That’s the reality.

But neither are our workplaces nor our public spaces nor, for some women, their homes. Do you think "separate but equal" is an appropriate response in those situations too?

But neither are our workplaces nor our public spaces nor, for some women, their homes.

So? This is about learning in an environment without them. It isn’t going to fix everything. But it can be good when as children girls have a space without males and with less chance of stereotypes and limitations at an important age.

@PCohle

Well we absolutely should be taking sexual harassment and assault much more seriously in mixed sex schools. It should be total zero tolerance. I agree with you.

As a parent however I like the idea that while my daughter is very young and vulnerable I can protect her from this during her time at school.

I would however prefer that all schools be made safe for all girls.

In fact in general I think I understand your view point. Often segregation is used as a means of oppressing women under the guise of protecting them from harm. So for example I can easily imagine a society where schools are segregated by sex and then the girls schools are underfunded and the girls encouraged to study cookery and forbidden to learn science.

However girls education in this country is often the complete opposite of the above.

I would like to see more provision for single sex education between 11 and 16 because I believe this is when girls are so vulnerable and they can have their confidence nurtured in a single sex environment.

I think mixed sex schools should also be made better for girls though and that this should be one of the criteria they are inspected on. Seems to be going the opposite way though with gender neutral toilets etc.

Yes, I have to say that while I am vehemently opposed to single sex education I am appalled by gender neutral toilets in schools (and toilet facilities generally in secondary).

I would like to see more provision for single sex education between 11 and 16 because I believe this is when girls are so vulnerable and they can have their confidence nurtured in a single sex environment.

But why is a single sex environment better for girls' confidence? Are we accepting that girls are somehow less confident or will be shouted down by boys?

I don't think sending the message to young women that they will struggle to make their voices heard amongst men and have to build up their confidence amongst their own kind first can possibly be helpful.

@pCohle

I don't think that is the message that girls get from all girls schools. Instead they see lots of other girls doing everything and being in all the responsible positions and winning all the awards and getting all the sports prizes and it helps them to become much more confident.

I went to visit quite a few secondaries and the difference between the mixed and the single sex ones was quite striking.

One mixed sex school had a whole board full of photos of the boys sports teams with just one small picture in the corner of the girls netball team. The A Level Physics class I viewed had no girls present in it. So I asked the headmaster what he was doing to combat stereotypes in his school at the Q&A session and his answer was that they didn't need to do anything because his girls were all strong minded and would study what they wanted. So I mentioned the physics class I had seen and he got irritated and said it wasn't true and I must be mistaken and swiftly moved on to the next parent.

In contrast the single sex girls schools I visited were obviously all about the girls.

I don't want my daughter internalising the message that women can only win prizes and attain leadership positions when men are removed from the equation though.

My kids are at a mixed sex school and they see women "doing everything" too. The head is a woman, the dux for the past three years has been a woman, the captain of the first XI is just as celebrated as the captain of the first XV.

I just find it profoundly depressing that so many feminists think we have to educate women alone to show them that women can succeed.

Nobody is saying you have to do anything.

My daughter isn't school age yet but I'll be sending her to an all girls school given the option. It would be nice if co-ed schools were safe environments for young women but I don't believe that they are.

@PColhe

Sounds like your daughter is at a good mixed sex school then. That's great but they aren't all like that.

Yes, I agree, but equally they aren't all bad!

@PColhe

I agree that mixed sex schools can be good for girls.

However if not much effort is made then the default outcome is in my opinion not as good for girls as single sex. I suppose this generally reflects patterns in society as a whole.

If schools

• Have zero tolerance to sexual harassment and abuse
• Take active steps to combat stereotypes and encourage children to try the activities associated with the opposite sex
• Provide good single sex changing and toilet facilities
• Give the girls sports teams the same opportunities and recognition as the boys
• Make sure they put girls into leadership positions within the school.

Then I think mixed sex education is good for girls. I would be very happy to see more of the above.

We looked at a girls school when my dd was considering which 6th form to apply to. We sat down for the headteacher's address. Her opening statement was that this was a girl's school, they don't admit boys even into the 6th form, unlike the corresponding boys school that takes girls in 6th form because, and I quote," we don't like boys". With that, we got up and walked out, as did some others.

So pleased you walked out Decomposing .

You walked out? Really??? God almighty.

Yep, we did. Why would you want a child educated in an establishment where a view such as that was promoted?

Would you want a child to go to a school where the view was " we don't like girls"?

I think you might be taking things a tad too seriously ...,