Would a move back to single sex education help our girls?

[BalletBunting]

I've been meditating on this recently - particularly seeing reports of the shocking levels of sexual harassment girls experience at school, as well as seeing the levels of gender stereotyping both my DC (one of each) have experienced since they were born. It made me wonder whether a move back to more single sex schools (for secondary at least) could actually have a positive effect on children of both sexes (and girls in particular)

Less sexual harassment, less stereotyping and as I understand the research shows that children do better in single sex environments, where they don't feel they need to 'perform' for the opposite sex. It also means that difficulties of puberty including hormones, menstruation etc can be dealt with in what might feel like a more safe environment.
Thoughts?

we’re pretty intolerant to it here

Who's "we"? The feminist board isn't, or shouldn't be, a special club that only members who toe the party line are allowed to comment on.

And frankly just because "we're" all doing it doesn't make it ok.

Claiming my post commenting on your attempts to silence a poster's views in fact impinges on your freedoms seems like a bizarre dystopian Catch 22.

I'm all in favour of single sex education at secondary. Usually they still mix for things like drama etc. The prep my daughter is at has recently gone co-Ed and the head breezily brushed off my concern of the boys dominating things like sports. I pointed to the sports pitch where there were only boys playing football at break. Previously there had been only girls playing football at break. It wasn't a thoughtful integration. DD won't be staying.

Have you never had your breasts touched by another girl? I have. Many times. I know my daughter has too

Never. And I've had two dds go through single sex education and sexual assault by another girl is completely unknown to them, in fact they laughed at the question. If it ever happens its incredibly rare.

Dd3 wears trousers to her mixed school so that the boys dont flick her skirt up. That's normal behaviour.

JessicaWakefieldSV

I really don't think that inappropriate touching is rare amongst girls. I just think that it is viewed differently and so it isn't seen as an assault, but touching someone inappropriately without permission, in my view, is assault.

I'm not dismissing assault by men and boys. The 2 things can exist together. I know my dd has said it happens when they've been getting changed in PE. I've seen girls pulling towels off of other girls etc.

And you can't deny that bullying occurs too. We had many incidents of self harm that were a result of groups of girls egging each other on. It really isn't as easy as saying separate boys from girls and everything will be ok.

JessicaWakefieldSV

We weren't talking about rape and sexual assault though until you started talking about it and reprimanding me.

We were talking about pros and cons of single sex Vs coed schools, in their entirety.

It was you that suddenly demanded the conversation be narrowed to only talk about rape and sexual assault.

Personally, I think that serious, constant bullying can be at least as harmful, if not more so, than sexual harassment but I think our own opinions are formed from our experiences. And girls schools are not immune to bullying.

None of them were bullied either. Nothing but happy memories. I think the worst thing that ever happened was once one of them was banned from singing in the choir as they hadn't gone to emough rehearsals. Happy days.

Fibbke

Which is great. Obviously bad things aren't going to happen to every child in every school are they?

My 2 had good experiences at school. The only issue for my dd was the weird groping thing and then the self harm bullying, which was dealt with quickly by the school. Both episodes involved groups of girls though, which to my mind, could equally have happened in a single sex school.

I think it works for girls but not for boys.

Having been to a single sex boys school the general attitude to girls was appalling, unfiltered and sexist. With no girls about it was like an old boys club, which is what then happens in society. The school was a male space, the boardrooms that some of the men now sit in, is a male space.

Don't quote me but I would say societies with the most segregated schooling, probably have poor attitudes towards women.

Fibbke nothing but happy memories sounds a bit like protesting too much, especially when you're talking about someone else's memories...

Nothing is perfect. Many children, including adult children, tell their parents what they want to hear and gloss over or are selective about anything else.

I expect my parents would say I had nothing but happy memories of the private girls'boarding school they worked hard to pay fees for.

I do have mostly happy memories and was never bullied (but am very aware others at my school were) certainly there were no pupil on pupil sexual assault or inappropriate touching incidents. There was a lot of eating disorder and suicidal ideation social contagion - no actual suicides but quite a few "cry for help" type attempts for a fairly small school population. I certainly never told my parents about it - it wasn't me directly but I was very aware of it in my peers. I vividly remember the suicide note one friend wrote another - they were room mates in the 5th year- which started "When you find me and I am dead..." Luckily the addressee found it immediately not the next morning as planned. She had taken an overdose, but fortunately nothing that was ever going to be fatal, and spent a night in hospital having her stomach pump to prevent organ damage...

Parents aren't told about that stuff.

However the claims that sexual assaults are going on between girls is so far outside my girls' school and general life experience that I struggle to give it much credence. If someone had said one individual, or even a bully with a group of toadies, had done that more than once I'd have believed it, but multiple discrete female teenagers inappropriately touching their classmates is just so incredibly unlikely and outside normal observable behaviour for everyone but one poster and her DD... It's... A startling anomaly...

No.

Not unless there is a reintroduction of a proper national curriculum.

I wet to a girls' school, yes we did science ad maths but I also spent years learning how to be, basically a housewife.

Three years of 'domestic science', increasing from an hour up to 4 hours a week, three years of needlework, only 2 hours a week of that, these were both up until 'options' so what would now be years 7 - 9.

There was also a lot of bitchiness and bullying. Something that may or may not be seen as sexual assault was 'checking for a sanitary towel' done by a girl walking behind you - it wasn't common but not uncommon either.

I left with a string of qualifications, no self esteem and unable to talk to a male my own age.

I was then sent to a VI form at the boys school, where the girls were firmly in second place.

Parents aren't told about that stuff

That would have been the first thing dd told me when she got in the car at the end of the day!

or even a bully with a group of toadies, had done that more than once I'd have believed it,

This is exactly what it was for my dd. One ring leader and her posse, usually in pe changing rooms and involved pulling off towels or "jokingly" touching girls.

My instances were from "friends" at school. It was just weird. It was just done in a kind of greeting or something - you clearly were expected to laugh along and take it as a joke.

That is totally weird. I went to a single sex comp in the 80s and can't remember a single sexual assault, we would certainly all have been talking about it if it was widespread! And even then we would have known it was weird and wrong and told someone.

For me, this was in the 80s. I guess my experience is limited only to the girls in my year. Amongst many of them it was seen as normal. I don't know how or why it started. I guess a small group started it and it grew. At least a few of us felt really uncomfortable about it but didn't dare say anything because that was a sure fire way of getting bullied. I certainly then didn't think of it as sexual assault (I don't think I even knew what that was tbh. We certainly were never spoken to about anything like that). Now, looking back I am certain that's what it was. I don't know why it was done - bullying, intimidation, to embarrass us? I really don't know. Certainly never felt able to tell an adult about it though.

Sounds horrid

Fibbke that's what we like to think as parents isn't it? Do you remember being the teen though? Did you tell your parents everything? I talked endlessly when I saw my parents - I automatically filtered exactly what I told them without even consciously thinking about why though. I didn't want to worry them, even when I was most annoyed with them, and was always subconsciously aware that I should be grateful, essentially my mum's entire salary went on school fees for my sisters and I while my dad's paid for everything else... Essentially despite all the rebellion on some levels teens want to please and protect their parents...

I just don't honestly believe anyone who claims to absolutely know their teenage offspring's experience completely - nor the teenage experience of their now adult offspring - especially when they believe that the experience was 100% perfect. No experience is 100% perfect.

Nobody has only happy memories unless they have a selective memory. That goes for every school experience, no matter whether single sex or coeducational, day or boarding, state or private.

I sometimes catch myself wanting to make statements about my own teen as though I've virtually lived her experiences and mentally kick myself remembering that teens are, and are meant to be, separating from us. No teen tells their parents everything. If you think they do you're not being honest with yourself.

I'm quite sure btw that most of what I mentioned in my 16:49 post was boarding school stuff not single sex school stuff.

I went to a single sex school. It was fantastic. I never felt ashamed of my body or embarrassed about things like periods, my weight, new boobs etc. I have also always been much safer from sexual assault as a result. There was no one around to stare at my legs when we were out in our PE skirts or to say or do inappropriate things for a ‘joke’. These kinds of behaviours were never normalised to me because girls don’t try to pass off sexual violence as humour so I’ve become very adept at drawing a clear line between misunderstandings/banter and deliberate sexual harassment and defending myself.

However, girls schools are notorious for dumbing down curriculums to boost results. It really shows sometimes, many women I meet who went to singles ex schools are very one dimensional in comparison to their Male counter parts or people who were in mixed education.

If I had daughters my instinct would be to put them in a single sex school but it can be very difficult to find decent ones.

*just to be clear by dumbing down I meant not as highbrow as the boys schools not housewives in the making. Our headmistress refused to introduce gone economics, apparently we were too good for that

However, girls schools are notorious for dumbing down curriculums to boost results

Well, that's a new one on me.

It was you that suddenly demanded the conversation be narrowed to only talk about rape and sexual assault.

No I didn’t. At all.

However, girls schools are notorious for dumbing down curriculums to boost results

Are they? Not heard that either, certainly not my or my DD experience. When you sit GCSE & A levels that certainly wouldn’t be in the schools control so dumbing down the curriculum would not boost results.

No is the short answer to the OP's (sexist) question.
It your duty to instil confidence and high self esteem in your daughters and indeed , in your sons too.

However, girls schools are notorious for dumbing down curriculums to boost results

that's batshit

Dumbing down? What nonsense. Our local state girls has best results in the county. They do English gcse a year early. If any criticism can be levelled it’s the opposite they very pushy to ensure girls do as well as they possibly can