Would a move back to single sex education help our girls?

[BalletBunting]

I've been meditating on this recently - particularly seeing reports of the shocking levels of sexual harassment girls experience at school, as well as seeing the levels of gender stereotyping both my DC (one of each) have experienced since they were born. It made me wonder whether a move back to more single sex schools (for secondary at least) could actually have a positive effect on children of both sexes (and girls in particular)

Less sexual harassment, less stereotyping and as I understand the research shows that children do better in single sex environments, where they don't feel they need to 'perform' for the opposite sex. It also means that difficulties of puberty including hormones, menstruation etc can be dealt with in what might feel like a more safe environment.
Thoughts?

SarahTancredi mixed sex schools can indeed deal with boys behaviour without using girls as buffers - for 102 reasons bottom sets at secondary are often all male or 90% male. Bottom sets are actually surprisingly easy to teach partly because they are small classes, with 10-15 pupils.

Middle sets are nightmarish because you have often 31 or 32 pupils, half of whom think they should be in the top set and are pissed off, half of whom think they can't do the work and want to be in the bottom sets/ at home/ anywhere else/ left alone and are pissed off...

Probably the best solution would be maximum class sizes of 15. Double the number of teachers and classrooms means double the school budget of course, so it'll never happen.

I expect the excellent high performing boys schools have small classes, especially if they are private.

Top mixed sets are generally well behaved in mixed state schools because those pupils are usually intrinsically motivated to do well, despite large classes, so that's why your boy's grammar school classes, and indeed any grammar school classes, are probably not particularly badly behaved.

What problems? We certainly haven't found a single disadvantage, can't think of any off the top of my head?

@decomposingcomposers

What do you see as the disadvantages for individual girls aged 11-16 of single sex education?

I can see two potential disadvantages of single sex education being adopted universally.

1. Girl's schools might eventually be underfunded or disadvantaged in some way with respect to boy's school

1. Boys would obviously then need to go to boy's schools which might make them more sexist. Not actually sure if this is true or not....

But for an individual girl I can see only advantages in being taught in a single sex environment from 11 to 16, as opposed to a school of similar quality that was mixed sex.

GrapefruitsAreNotTheOnlyFruit there are disadvantages for some individual girls - not all. As I've said I enjoyed my time at a girl's school for the most part, but by age 15 I felt like a freak. I was acutely aware that I hadn't been socialised normally and really had no idea how to behave around males who weren't small children or "dad age". This was due to my very specific circumstances and will not apply to most girls I'm sure.

I remember deciding I wanted to go to a mixed sixth form and my parents saying no and teasing me, they could not or would not understand that it wasn't that I wanted a boyfriend, though perhaps I did asa side issue, but that I generally and genuinely felt ill equipped for "real life".

In the end I told my parents that I wouldn't do any work for my a levels unless they let me go to the local sixth form - they'd outright ruled out paying similar fees to my girls'school for a mixed school. I was a very stubborn teenager and they believed me, but the head told them in a meeting before I left that I'd get worse results if I went to a school with "distractions".

I was taking arts subjects anyway and my classes at 6th form were 75% female, and I didn't feel inhibited at all in class, but I did socially, in corridors, in the dining hall - I never even entered the common room. I was so uncomfortable but honestly felt as a sixth former that I had to put myself through it so as to be able to cope in "real life" after school. Not having been exposed to normal interaction with boys my age was a handicap to me. As I say, it was because my school was bording and I had no contact with boys at home either.

A state day school probably has vanishingly few pupils for whom this is an issue.

On the institutional side when I was teaching secondary in the UK raising boys achievement was the hot topic. I'd lay bets it will still be until boys on average outperform girls across the board. Until that happens it's fairly much guaranteed boys schools would get more funding than girls schools if all schools were single sex - because boys would be presented as an underperforming group.

So yes, the funding issue would probably bite from day 1, with seemingly reasonable justification...

What do you see as the disadvantages for individual girls aged 11-16 of single sex education?

It's an artificial environment. The world is not sex segregated. I think diversity, in all walks of life, is important. We all need to learn about difference and to enjoy the positives that difference brings.

I also agree with a previous poster - I think it's important for girls to see that they can compete against boys. That being successful can only happen in the absence of boys.

I look at my children and see the benefits that they've had by mixing with boys and girls and having friends of both sexes. It's been great to see them going out in mixed groups, not pairing off as boyfriend/girlfriend but genuinely all going out as friends and having the different perspectives that having friends of the opposite sex brings.

Bullying is absolutely not comparable to sexual assault or rape, which does not happen ( pupil on pupil ) at girls schools.

Sexual assault doesn't happen at girls schools? Really?

And we weren't talking about rape. We were talking about sexual harassment and sexual assault. I simply don't agree that sexual harassment is always worse than some forms of bullying.

And we weren't talking about rape

Well I am. We have discussed it on this thread as well. Sexual assaults by females in general, is very rare. Men are responsible for 98% of sexual assaults. So your insistence it’s in any way comparable or you’re not significantly reducing risk, is absurd and offensive.

I'm pretty sure that sexual assault is vanishingly rare at girls schools compared to mixed DecomposingComposers - I think you're barking up the wrong tree there. I certainly never heard of sexual assault in my 5 years as a girls' school pupil, although there was plenty of bullying of other kinds which thankfully never affected me personally but everyone was aware of, and rumours about a couple of male teachers not assaulting anyone but abusing their position of authority to have illicit relationships with 6th dormers, which may or may not have had basis (it was the 80s...)

I guess it depends what you class as sexual assault. How many girls report inappropriate touching by other girls do you think? So crime statistics are unlikely to reflect it.

And bullying, in some cases, can be horrific. I don't think you can say that in all cases bullying is not as bad as...

A local girl killed herself last year because of bullying. I think that's serious.

I guess it depends what you class as sexual assault. How many girls report inappropriate touching by other girls do you think? So crime statistics are unlikely to reflect it.

Right so you’re going to invent something that ‘might’ be happening but we don’t know about, just to what? Try and suggest girls sexually assault as much as boys. What the actual fuck. This is bullshit.

I'm not suggesting anything not inventing anything.

Have you never had your breasts touched by another girl? I have. Many times. I know my daughter has too. I class that as sexual assault just the same as I would if a boy or man did it.

Sexual assault by females is incredibly rare. You and your daughter are extremely unfortunate to both have had that experience. It is not common at girls schools or generally. Using rare cases in a discussion about the high rate of assaults committed by boys in uk schools, is disingenuous at best.

In fact, it’s a common MRA tactic and I don’t appreciate it on a feminist board.

Personally I think the feminist boards should encourage a diverse range of viewpoints. I'm not in favour of trying to stifle women's voices because you "don't appreciate" what they have to say.

DecomposingComposers bullying is horrific but a separate issue to sexual assaults. Even taking ourselves out ofthe equation most women have seen low grade sexual assault (touching, pushing up etc) carried out by men on othe women - I have too often to count. Most of us have been sexually assaulted by men - I'd date to say every single woman over 20 who hasn't been kept entirely secluded has had a man touch her thighs or bum in a clearly unwanted, uninvited context - breasts less so, it's harder to pretend that didn't happen, so I'm surprised it's your breasts all these women are touching). I've never had a woman do anything that could be called sexual assault and never seen it happen to anyone else.

It really is vanishingly rare, and something men claim happens - I'm sure it happens occasionally, almost everything does.

Nobody ever reports a man pressing up against them unnecessarily or trying to stick their hand up her skirt on public transport or gropping them in a crowded bar either - we get away asap. None of those assaults are reported, they're seen as just life. Only very violent sexual assault and rape get reported. The police would do nothing if you rang 999 to report a man gropping you - can you imagine even trying?

Groping not gropping

*dare not date... And other typos, sorry!

PCohle

Well that depends on what they’re saying doesn’t it. When discussing rape and sexual assault, to say, on a feminist board, that ‘girls do it too’ is reprehensible. It’s very rare.

Then make that point - educate posters on why that argument is reprehensible. Don't just try and no platform them (with no authority to do so).

Then make that point - educate posters on why that argument is reprehensible. Don't just try and no platform them (with no authority to do so).

I’m not no platforming anyone, that’s ludicrous. This is a forum and they can continue to comment anytime. Criticism and offence at a comment does not equal no platforming.

I don’t need to educate the women on the feminism board as to why the argument is reprehensible. We’re all extremely aware that men commit almost ALL sexual assaults. To chime in with ‘women do it too’ is obviously and without needing an explanation, total minimisation of concerns expressed in this thread. Why you need this explained to you is beyond me. What don’t you understand about 98% exactly? The stats speak for themselves, as do the many many shared experiences on these boards of assaults and indecent touching by men.

I don't need it explained to me. I don't agree with Decomposing's posts on the subject.

However MN provides one of the very few fora in which GC feminists are still allowed to share their views freely. It seems profoundly counter to that spirit of welcoming open minded discussion to police comments by other posters with comments like "it’s a common MRA tactic and I don’t appreciate it on a feminist board" which clearly implies that you don't think that poster should continue posting on this forum.

PCohle

Stop telling me what I think. You’re drawing your own conclusions, and they’re bullshit. I am most certainly not the only member that complains at comments like that or refers to them as ‘MRA tactics’ on these boards, we’re pretty intolerant to it here and it’s called out when it happens. As it should be. Bullshit comments about female sexual abusers absolutely deserve to be called out. Now, seen as you’re so concerned about freedom to post what we all like, why don’t you stop derailing by telling me how to speak and what I should say? Because you’re being very hypocritical.

Anothernothereon

I’m pretty sure girls like you describe exist in state as well.

My niece is one of two girls she goes to a girls school (has mixed sixth form) But she is year 9. She does no clubs outside of school so no boys there.

In the last two years she has only really socialised with her two cousins both much younger that are male.

I worry for her as she is OBSESSED with older boys particularly those in her school sixth form

I don’t feel it’s healthy.