Feminism and breastfeeding

[SnuggyBuggy]

Just curious as to people's opinions here as I haven't seen these two things discussed a lot. Is promoting breastfeeding compatible with being a feminist?

If there is a taboo it’s around the fact that in countries with proper support, over 90% of women successfully bf.

Not wanting to is a perfectly good reason for not bf. Absolutely fine. No questions asked. Not being physically able to, apart from in a few specific medical and medication related cases is a cop out by a system which doesn’t provide enough support and a society that regards bf as an anomaly.

Totally this.

RedToothBrush

That graph is very interesting. I was going to say I find the attitudes around BF very different in the uk to my home country of NZ, the rates on that graph are quite different too.

I think it's all part of the larger dichotomy of how society sees motherhood.
Every single thing a mother does is up for scrutiny and judgement. A mother is expected to be the perfect paragon. If she makes a mistake or doesn't conform to whatever is considered 'best' at the moment she is clearly wrecking her kids future.
But at the same time her job is one of the least valued.

Surely feminism is about choices and opportunities? A woman should feel free to do what she likes and there should be support available either way. Breastfeeding is ridiculously hard in this country. There is very little information/practical suppport available. Many people judge women for feeding in public and even those who claim to be bf friendly are grossed out by feeding past 6months/1year.

Breasts are very sexualised in British culture, more so than in many other places. I remember being shocked when I moved to the UK to see men looking at topless women in newspapers while riding the train on a morning commute. So it doesn't surprise me that so many women feel uncomfortable making the switch from "breasts are for pleasure/male partner" to "breasts are for feeding baby."

I have lived in several countries and it's only my British friends/acquaintances who have said they find BF "icky" or "gross." American, Australia, Canadian women have a very different attitude - not that they all BF but rather the ones who didn't will say they had medical issues or baby couldn't latch etc. British friends also think expressing for months at work insane, why wouldn't you just use formula etc. In the US expressing is like a sport among working mothers!

So - I do think the way British women view their breasts in relation to society is a huge factor in why BF rates are low, and that's certainly a feminist issue. Because I don't believe the sexualisation of breasts is driven by women.

There are some incredibly backwards and ignorant views about breastfeeding past 6 months. Often they come from HCPs too.

A friend of mine recounted to me recently a story about what a health visitor had said on the subject. It was appallingly regressive and just plain wrong. Jawdroppingly so.

I've also had some terrible comments from HCPs on the subject.

There is definitely a social pressure to give up as soon as possible in addition to difficulties in doing it in the first place.

We should be looking at both. There is a systematic and social failure here, which is robbing women of genuine choices.

I think the U.K. has one of the lowest rates of maternity pay in Europe, that presumably leads to more women returning to work sooner and dropping BF. (Just one of the factors, obv)

@edgeofheaven I agree with this. Pre-DC I lived in an African country for a while where breasts were not sexualised and bf was the absolute norm. My naive little British self was shocked to see women strolling down the street feeding a baby - I literally didn’t even realise it was possible never mind socially acceptable!

Yeah, in NZ, particularly on the marae & in Māori communities, it is very very common to see women BF and babies in slings with their mother all the time. I bf for a year and only stopped because I had a lot of dental work and my milk dried up I think due to the medications etc I had severely cracked nipples 3 times but we have Plunket Nurse there so I always had help with that.

Spartacus, I take some issue with that interpretation.

You have decisions made on the basis of conditioning - with the use of information and sources which might be biased in someway and you also have decisions based on proper evidence based medicine (which includes the physical and mental well being of women) which empower women to make decisions without undue pressure placed on them. Understanding the difference is crucial and should be stressed.

One of the problems is that women's health is particularly prone to political interference which is designed to influence behaviour which is carried through into research so that research fails to be as robust as it should be in terms of being evidence based rather than ideologically based.

Radical feminism as such, supports choice based on a society which recognises the inherent bias in medicine and research and how that affects women and seeks to address that to empower women.

I personally think choice therefore is an integral part of radical feminism. Its just how you talk about the framing of that and whether choice is free from political bias which isn't centring women first.

There is clearly an issue which is particular to the UK itself, if so few women are breastfeeding at 12months compared to elsewhere. Either you believe that breastfeeding is antifeminist and the UK is streets ahead of the rest of the world, or you view it as women in the uk living in a society which is restricting women almost completely to breastfeed past six months to a degree which is totally unseen anywhere else. I find it hard to believe that radical feminists believe that breastfeeding past six months is an inherent evil and against their interests tbh.

I didn’t have my baby here so I’m interested in the differences between care you get and what I had.

I was given a midwife during early pregnancy I saw every month up until 6 months and then the appointments got closer and closer together. I had one midwife the whole time, who was present at birth. We don’t get passed around, we form a close relationship.
This midwife then visits every day for 2 weeks after the birth.
Then this midwife hands you over to your local Plunket, you meet the nurses you’ll deal with and have a chat etc I saw the same Plunket Nurse the whole time. She’s there to help with literally anything, particularly feeding.

I agree that there is definitely something to do with our societal and cultural past that has had a massive impact on how breasts and hence breastfeeding is perceived.
I grew up without ever seeing (or at least noitcing) anyone breastfeeding. I have no idea if I was bf as my mum passed away 7 years ago and I never thought to ask.
So normalising it within our current society must be part of the solution. A friend who had their DS at the same time as I had DD got incredibly angry with her DS nursery as they would have a baby doll area with baby bottles etc and encouraged the children to role play but only every feeding with a bottle - she was ebfing and was annoyed they didn't also include bf as an option, and was told it could be regarded as a safeguarding issue.
I agree that in school you should be taught about the physiological difference between men and women, not just in the reproductive systems.
One thing I find interesting whenever discussing bf vs ff - is that it is always an either/or argument. And I completely understand that this is based on my experience with my DC, but what about combi-feeding? I do wonder if combi-feeding was better understood and talked about that some of the issues some women have with ebf would be removed with additional ff, and thus enabling them to continue bf for longer? We combi-fed DD and whilst we stopped the ff around 1yr, I continued bf till she stopped at 20mths. With DS we're doing the same - we're currently phasing out the ff but I'll continue bf till we're ready to stop.

On a population level breastfeeding has health benefits, so it makes sense for governments and health services to encourage breastfeeding. On an individual level these are so small that while they should be considered, it's likely that other factors will feed into the decision far more strongly.

I don't think our government and health service are going about encouraging BF in the most effective way. It seems that they are operating on the misconception that preference/choice is the most important factor in feeding methods. I simply don't think this is true. If there is any truth in it, then surely we can see that it's worked - 81% of mothers initiating breastfeeding is a huge amount. But from the data of the rates dropping off we can see that choice is in no way the deciding factor, so it is not helpful to focus on choice. In fact I reckon you'd have far more influence on breastfeeding rates if you stopped all the promotion and instead placed proper support where it's actually needed ie in the maternity wards and health visiting teams etc.

But I do think women and children need protection from predatory marketing by formula companies. We don't see this because we have quite good protection already so nitpicking/arguments happen about the fringes like whether you can get Boots points on formula or positioning of a formula can on a supermarket shelf. Arguably this stuff is trivial/not an issue but at the same time the protection needs to extend to cover some trivial things in order to definitely cover the extremely harmful things.

BTW you definitely do not want formula to be prescription only. Formula needs to be available freely (not neccessarily free in terms of money but easily available)

Spartacus I do agree that conditioning is a problem too. Women make far too many 'choices' which aren't really choices at all.

was told it could be regarded as a safeguarding issue.

that's so fucked up.

A thing is only ‘feminist’ if it supports women and the acceptance of womanhood as a valid mode of existence which is of equal value with any and all others.

Breastfeeding is essentially female and womanly. To be a breastfeeding mother is a feminist act.

To be a mother who does not breastfeed is also feminist - people don’t have to be bound by or to what their bodies suggest.

To support mothers is feminist. Raising children is part of who we are. Long ago when I was breastfeeding and co-sleeping, it was ‘radical mothering’, a feminist act.

Early to mid feminism took the male as norm and thought we would be equal and free if our lives followed a more masculine model. That’s incomplete feminism. Full feminism has to embrace who we are, including the physical functioning of XX bodies. Without shame. Without having to apologise to women who can’t or won’t do that, from choice, misfortune or biology. Without being penalised in the workplace or in society because child rearing is part of who we are.

I breastfed my dd for over four years. She breastfed her dd for longer. We would both say we are feminists and mean it.

I breastfed for over 5 years. Kid 1 was easy peasy, kid 2 was a NIGHTMARE in the beginning, but ended up nursing til just gone three.

I’ve completed UNICEF peer supporter training and enjoyed my time helping to run our local support group.

Women should be supported to achieve their own breastfeeding goals - not criticised if they don’t want to breast feed (sometimes this is a response to trauma or abuse) or made to feel shitty for not trying hard enough.

It’s perfectly possible to breastfeed and return to work under U.K. maternity provision. Much harder for women in the US who get very little leave.

Breastfeeding is absolutely compatible with feminism and there is plenty of other stuff for any non-feeding partner parents to do.

I was a single mum when I was feeding my eldest and it made my life so much easier - I used to go feed my son in the campus nursery on my lunch break. Happy memories.

Spartacus, I come from a position where most of my understanding of women's health is based on the fallacy of choice because of how evidence is biased. And I beleive strongly that this needs to be highlighted and stressed in a particular way which cuts through this division between liberal feminism and radical feminism. I don't think the narrative of feminists v feminists is terribly helpful in that sense. All it does is put your identity as a liberal / radical feminist first and more important than the actual problem here.

The problem isn't the ideology of each group - its how research in health care and particularly women's health is riddled with unseen and unacknowledged bias.

However you see feminism and its priorities - whether it be about choice or empowerment which centres women - you need to focus on the material reality element of this, which you can only really see manifested if the relability, intergrity and quality of research is of the highest possible standards.

Drawing attention to this, rather than a battle between liberal feminism and radical feminism is important for that reason. All that is, is more identity politics ultimately.

(I note that might well be a radical feminist position, but I'm not sure it needs the label as it simply ends up being restrictive rather than achieving its own aims.)

I don't think it's even just the sexualisation of breasts but also the ownership of them.
When men can start talking about persuading their partne's to get a boob job for their pleasure, when some women think that's ok, when people think they have a right to an opinion on if, or where, a woman feeds her children. I've had a health worker grab my breast without asking permission or pre-warning when I was breastfeeding too.
Where are the boundaries that should be so obvious?

"Full feminism has to embrace who we are, including the physical functioning of XX bodies. Without shame. Without having to apologise to women who can’t or won’t do that, from choice, misfortune or biology. Without being penalised in the workplace or in society because child rearing is part of who we are."

THIS!

Agree with Red too and lots of the other excellent points made.

I was v sceptical about this thread at first but it's a great discussion so far

NottonightJosepheen

I don't think we should dismiss or minimise women's experiences

Nor do I. Questioning it isn't dismissing it. Quite the opposite

If I respond to your "questioning" Nottonight I will be accused of derailing the thread into personal anecdote rather than generalities.

Fair enough, you didn't enjoy it but 'revolting'? That's an unfortunate value judgement

You can treat my physical experience as an "unfortunate value judgement" if you like but your posts come very close to being dismissive/ there must be something wrong with me. As I said earlier one of the things which was wrong was it made me feel physically sick. However if you want to dismiss that as "internalised misogyny" I think you might want to consider your own misogyny.