The right to say 'no'

[RedToothBrush]

Just reading a few threads on various things today, particularly in reference to 'kink shaming' which has come up on several.

Women do have to be more confident in their right to say 'no' unequivocally, without having this desparate need to give a lengthy explanation of why it's OK for them to just assert themselves if they feel uncomfortable about something.

The right to say 'no' always comes down to the concept of concent and 'no' is a sufficient answer to personal boundaries whatever they maybe.

There shouldn't be a movement about trying to shame women constantly into justifying themselves - whether it be, being polite about their opinions, their personal boundaries or being told what their responsibilities are.

Saying 'no' as a form of consent isn't just about crossing your legs and not having sex. It's about being a woman and being able to assert yourself without being condemned for it in anyway.

I think it nearly needed stressing given what I'm reading and it deserved its own thread about how we need to make the point that 'no' without tying yourself up in knots should be something we try and do more of across whatever it happens to be.

We should not feel guilty for saying 'no' if it's something we are unhappy about.

There shouldn't be a movement about trying to shame women constantly into justifying themselves - whether it be, being polite about their opinions, their personal boundaries or being told what their responsibilities are.

^^ This! Stop with the woman-shaming!

I spoke to a really interesting woman once about passive aggression. She's a mediator and communication expert. She said that the people she sees who are passive aggressive are often older women. "WT?F" I thought. But she made a good point. These are women who have never been allowed to ask for what they want. Their needs have never been seen as important, they have selflessly performed their role for decades and have no idea how to ask for what they want, or don't want. So it comes out as PA stuff. Once their children are independent and their DHs are retired.

The ability to say "no" (or "yes" for that matter) is valued in men and discouraged in women. It just gets a crap ton more sinister when sex is involved.

Thank you for starting this thread. I've noticed this on several threads too (and also a false dichotomy between "prudishness" versus "anything goes").

Women are allowed to say no to any sexual practice they don't like, without further justification.

Furthermore they're allowed to say no to any sexual practice they don't even like the idea of, without being obliged to "try it just once" to see.

Women are allowed only to want to engage in sexual practices which will bring them pleasure. They are not obliged to put up with things they feel "meh" about for the sake of their partner's sexual pleasure.

I think it was American Gods when someone said "do you know why men like anal? Because women don't" and he made the point that women don't have the same biology as men and are less likely to enjoy it.

Now I don't want to get into the whole 'I love it' thing. The point is women's pleasure isn't the point. That's why 'I don't want to' isn't good enough. We're a prop to these people, not a human with preferences, desires, needs and wants of our own.

mrsterry I remember back when anal was seen as much more niche a male friend of mine making the same point: he said he'd noticed that in "locker room conversations" the sort of men who went on and on about how they loved anal were the sort of men who did not like women and wanted to dominate them.

The point is women's pleasure isn't the point. That's why 'I don't want to' isn't good enough. We're a prop to these people, not a human with preferences, desires, needs and wants of our own.

Hence telling lesbians to 'learn to cope' with piv sex by getting over their 'genital fetish'.

Because sex for women isn't about their choice or pleasure damnit, it's about servicing men. So knickers off and stop being silly.

That's actually an excellent point, the only fetish that isn't allowed is a so-called vagina fetish.

Just to dissect the meaning of the phrase 'kink shaming'.

Kick Shaming is a euphemism to guilt people through coercive control / emotional blackmail into lowering someone's personal boundaries over sex. It is a DARVO technic, which is to attack someone who is uncomfortable with a sexual practice.

If someone wants to indulge in a sexual practice, then its a private matter which shouldn't be made someone else's business UNLESS its illegal or coercive in someway.

This is why accusing someone of 'kink shaming' is a great big red flag. Also see accusing someone of being 'prudish'.

Your own personal boundaries are not something that are up for negogition nor something to be ground down 'through education' or some other such bullcrap.

No is ALWAYS ok.

Oddly enough I have problems saying no in other contexts but not in terms of sex. I think it's because I'm very confident sexually.

Though there's also the fact that men trying to hassle you into a sex act you don't fancy are soo much working for a script. You're a prude, you're not cool. And then there's the classic "All the other women love it" - to which the answer is "Then do it with them."

Great thread.

No is a complete sentence.

Again, only with emphasis: No is a complete sentence.

And that's about everything, not just sex.

A good rule of thumb for assessing men is to say no to them - can be about anything, not just sex - and see how they react. It'll tell you all you need to know. If they get cross - bin them. If they wheedle - bin them. If they accept it without question - they might well be a keeper.

And don't qualify the no. The simple two letters will do.

Kink shaming is often code for let me shame you for not accommodating my kink. Some kinks are repellent to most people - age play for instance.

Hence telling lesbians to 'learn to cope' with piv sex by getting over their 'genital fetish'.

Because sex for women isn't about their choice or pleasure damnit, it's about servicing men. So knickers off and stop being silly.

Spot on, Michelle.

Posted too soon. Only men who really respect and love women can be great lovers. To them our sexuality is as important as their own.

Interestingly, I was musing about this in the context of the 'woke bros versus chivalrous men' thread. There is actually a sort of benign sexism in the concept of ladies first. In lifeboats, doors and orgasms. And an acknowledgement of basic biology is intrinsic in all of them.

It's still sexism, but it's not misogyny.

It's still sexism, but it's not misogyny.
Really important distinction MrsTP - and one I'm going to ponder on. I think I've often had the feeling that sexism isn't always totally bad per se but at the same time I thought it had to be. But it doesn't. Just like giving up a seat to someone elderly is ageist. Of course some women are stronger than some men, but if a ship is going down it's not really the time to get picky if you're trying to save the most lives is it?
And I sort of feel stupid, but at the same time I can see how sometimes, some, feminist ideals get rejected by other women.

It's the difference between acknowledging differences between the sexes and saying those differences mean we should give people a kind of lesser value as human beings.

There has been a type of feminism that wants to simply wipe out the differences altogether, say they don't exist. I think it's come up with a lot of failures though. The other approach has difficulties though. If we acknowledge that they exist, it's possible they could have implications we don't like, and you have to then argue the point on its merits, not through a straight claim to the difference not existing.

Yeah, sometimes a word is just a word with no need to assign a pejorative absolute to it.

When I used to visit my DB in central London late at night he always put me in a taxi and paid for me to get home safe. To me - and him - this acknowledged that public transport late at night can be hazardous for women, plus he earned far more than I did.

That sort of protective behaviour isn't sexist to my mind. It's based on a realistic assessment of greater risk to women.

I'm the oldest and I did well out of my DBs. When we were kids they looked up to me. I was the leader of the girls' gang so they were in my gang. Then when they grew taller than me they became protective (, though never restrictive). I remember some dick trying to give me a hard time in a pub once and then, as if by magic, I had a brother on each shoulder and the dick had vanished. Love them to bits.

Full disclosure, I am a man.

That said, this thread is not something that is completely foreign to me, nor to many other men. No, we are typically not badgered and denigrated for saying no specific acts because that is just not something we are subject to in the same way, however in my own experience...

I have been badgered, called gay, accused of having a small dick, limp dick, and all kinds of other things simply for declining sex with women who wanted sex from me. There is a definite pressure to perform at a woman's whim, even within relationships. Hell, since anal was brought up, my wife enjoys it occasionally, and it was her who badgered me and wore me down over the course of about a year into doing it, because after all, how could I know if I didn't like it unless I had tried it?

The biggest difference is that as a man, if and when I say no to something sexual, I am still expected to be apologetic, explain, justify, show concern for feelings. What I don't don't have to worry about is being being raped or murdered. And yeah, that makes all the difference in the world.

The biggest difference is that as a man, if and when I say no to something sexual, I am still expected to be apologetic, explain, justify, show concern for feelings.

No you are not

Not in the same way.

Hth.

The difference is you face words ("limp dick" etc) if you say no; we face rape and other forms of physical violence.

As in so many other contexts this quote is useful here...

men are afraid that women will laugh at them, women are afraid thst men will kill them

Have a proper think about that sam

Sort of like what I explicitly said right?

What I don't don't have to worry about is being being raped or murdered. And yeah, that makes all the difference in the world.

How did getting called "limp dick" make you feel ?

In fear for your life ? Or just a bit upset.