The right to say 'no'

[RedToothBrush]

Just reading a few threads on various things today, particularly in reference to 'kink shaming' which has come up on several.

Women do have to be more confident in their right to say 'no' unequivocally, without having this desparate need to give a lengthy explanation of why it's OK for them to just assert themselves if they feel uncomfortable about something.

The right to say 'no' always comes down to the concept of concent and 'no' is a sufficient answer to personal boundaries whatever they maybe.

There shouldn't be a movement about trying to shame women constantly into justifying themselves - whether it be, being polite about their opinions, their personal boundaries or being told what their responsibilities are.

Saying 'no' as a form of consent isn't just about crossing your legs and not having sex. It's about being a woman and being able to assert yourself without being condemned for it in anyway.

I think it nearly needed stressing given what I'm reading and it deserved its own thread about how we need to make the point that 'no' without tying yourself up in knots should be something we try and do more of across whatever it happens to be.

We should not feel guilty for saying 'no' if it's something we are unhappy about.

I find it hard to take a man seriously who has posted on just two threads on MN. One of which is about consent and a woman's right to say it without qualification and how women face difficulties doing so because of the expectations and socialisation they face.

samyeagar

Let's play a game.

You ask me: "Am I welcome on a thread on a feminist board in which women are talking to one another about saying no to men?"

And I reply: "No."

Then we see how you react? Good game, right?

AnyFucker Honestly? Neither. Pretty much just an internal eye roll at the boorish behaviour, thinking they could at least try and come up with some new material. I do understand that is a luxury I have that women don't.

RedToothBrush Understandable, but I have lurked unregistered for quite a while, and everyone has to start posting somewhere, and I picked a doozy, largely because my personal experience of being unable to simply say "no" in the sexual arena and have it just accepted at face value. In that respect, I can relate to the concept in the original post. What I can't relate to, and fully acknowledged is the consequence women face on a regular basis.

That said, I was a CSA victim, some of which I remember vividly, in particular the powerlessness to stop or change what was happening, so I do have a personal interest in the subject of consent and consequence.

We don't trust you in our spaces sam

If that bothers you then you don't get it and you have no business here

It's the difference between acknowledging differences between the sexes and saying those differences mean we should give people a kind of lesser value as human beings.

This ^

I regularly piss of certain types of men, and some women, by saying no. I’ve noticed it a lot with landlords and landlady’s. My husband can say the same thing to them and they’re much more understanding & respectful. Both saying No, and standing up for my legal rights, I’ve found more difficult than my husband has.

Anyone who uses insults and refuses to accept no is obviously out of line samyeagar but even though you acknowledge you are much less likely to be raped and killed I don't think you understand how much that changes the whole equation.
Imagine the person wanting to have sex with you and calling you a 'limp dick' was actually a man twice as big and strong as you.

I do appreciate you trying to relate though.
But what is a CSA victim?

CSA= child sexual abuse.

I am sorry that happened to you sam

I do appreciate you trying to relate though.

I don't.

I do appreciate you trying to relate though.

I don't.

I do appreciate you trying to relate though.

I don't.

Sorry I didn't understand your acronym Sam, and I too am sorry that happened to you.

I haven't seen those other threads you're talking about and you haven't linked to them so I have no idea in what context the term "kink shaming" came up on those threads.

However, in the absence of that context, I do really disagree with your definition of "kink shaming":-

Kick Shaming is a euphemism to guilt people through coercive control / emotional blackmail into lowering someone's personal boundaries over sex.

No, it really is not.

Kink shaming is something that is used to show disrespect for both men and women over an unconventional sexual practice or fetish.

"What, OMG, you're into BDSM? You're such a pervert!!!!!" - this is kink shaming.

This sort of reaction to a whole range of sex acts is very common indeed. It is used very much to silence both women and men.

Even here on MN I read a thread just today where it was stated that a man had photos of himself online that indicated he was into BDSM and a number of posters on the thread insinuated that he was probably also a pedophile or, at the very least, should never be involved with children simply due to his connection with BDSM.

So, kink shaming is not a "euphemism" for anything it is something that is very real indeed. Replace the word "kink" with the word "slut" and it may give you an idea.

On the other hand, you talk elsewhere about having to say "no". Are there manipulative, controlling men who will try to push women's boundaries and use "You're kink shaming me!" in order to get their own way when a woman has simply said "No"? Of course there are.

But to simply say Kick Shaming is a euphemism to guilt people is totally wrong on a lot of levels.

I haven't seen those other threads you're talking about and you haven't linked to them so I have no idea in what context the term "kink shaming" came up on those threads.

However, in the absence of that context, I do really disagree with your definition of "kink shaming":-

Kick Shaming is a euphemism to guilt people through coercive control / emotional blackmail into lowering someone's personal boundaries over sex.

No, it really is not.

Kink shaming is something that is used to show disrespect for both men and women over an unconventional sexual practice or fetish.

"What, OMG, you're into BDSM? You're such a pervert!!!!!" - this is kink shaming.

This sort of reaction to a whole range of sex acts is very common indeed. It is used very much to silence both women and men.

Even here on MN I read a thread just today where it was stated that a man had photos of himself online that indicated he was into BDSM and a number of posters on the thread insinuated that he was probably also a pedophile or, at the very least, should never be involved with children simply due to his connection with BDSM.

So, kink shaming is not a "euphemism" for anything it is something that is very real indeed. Replace the word "kink" with the word "slut" and it may give you an idea.

On the other hand, you talk elsewhere about having to say "no". Are there manipulative, controlling men who will try to push women's boundaries and use "You're kink shaming me!" in order to get their own way when a woman has simply said "No"? Of course there are.

But to simply say Kick Shaming is a euphemism to guilt people is totally wrong on a lot of levels.

Sorry I didn't understand your acronym Sam, and I too am sorry that happened to you.

Sorry for the accidental repetition!

Sorry for multiple posts the internet is being strange at the moment

Sorry for the accidental repetition!

" or, at the very least, should never be involved with children simply due to his connection with BDSM."
No, it was the link they made themselves between their particular fetish and their work (which involves child protection). That was the dodgy issue, not the kink itself.

"It is used very much to silence both women and men."
I don't have a terrific problem with silencing people when they insist on imposing their particular sexual kink on me without my consent. There is after all, a tremendous difference between saying yuck in the bedroom after you have consented to perhaps engaging in shennigans with this person, and saying yuck because someone insists on inflicting knowledge of their kink on you elsewhere.

It's only because certain people with unconventional sexual predilections seem to want to keep talking about them in situations where others are not terribly keen in hearing, and accusing them of silencing or shaming them when we object. And yes, I am more than aware of similar sounding things being done to lesbians or gay men, but there is a world of difference between a sexual orientation and a sexual preference. Particularly for lesbians where when I was younger, whenever I said I was a lesbian (my sexual orientation), I was often bombarded with questions as to exactly what lesbians did in bed (sexual preferences).

Some kinks deserve to be shamed.

I don't have a terrific problem with silencing people when they insist on imposing their particular sexual kink on me without my consent.

This.

I couldn't give a monkey's what someone's sexual preferences are but I don't want it shoved in my face. And it's not about how 'different' it is - I don't want straight missionary sex pushing in my face either. Your fetish, your business, it's not that interesting and you don't need my approval.

And don't qualify the no. The simple two letters will do
This is so true, I often simply say no, no additions, no qualifications, just no.
Men mostly stand and wait for me to qualify my no. I never do, it's quite funny. Some women wait for the qualifier too, but mostly they know me now and dont.
The men often do the famous MN head tilt waiting.

Wow this thread has attracted some interesting comments from people who don't like or understand why women have a particular problem in asserting the word 'no'.

I don't give a fuck about your private life as long as I don't see, hear or have to deal with it and its legal and not done by pressuring anyone else into it.

'Kink shaming' is precisely about a need to shove it in others faces and normalise it as if it were drinking a cup of tea.

No.

Male sadists/dominants definitely deserve to be shamed/lkink-shamed. They should also hear the word "no" from women all the time.

Despite being around for decades feminism, the movement that gives women the space to say no, seems to have had very little impact sadly when you hear about teenage girls who basically feel unable to say no to anything sexual boys demand of them. It seems to be getting worse for women and girls, not better.