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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Genuine question re “living as a woman”

95 replies

PinkyU · 07/06/2019 20:33

I’m a woman and therefore (imo) “live as a woman”, this involves be being addressed in female pronouns, accessing woman’s toilets/changing rooms etc unquestioned, being seen as “safe” by other women, experiencing discrimination based on being obviously visually female. (I purposely don’t add anything related to fertility, pregnancy, female diseases, breastfeeding as these things are not necessarily experienced by ALL women, if that makes sense.) if a transperson can experience these same things, are they then not also living as a woman (under my poorly defined criteria)?

If (as I’ve seen on posts in this board) living as a female is not a “thing”, I don’t understand the drive to segregate things and experiences as only for xx women, wouldn’t that then be living as a woman because only women can then experience these things?

I know this is a bit confused and garbled, it’s not a concept or idea I’ve considered before, but rather than processing it from a singular (fairly liberal) view, I feel I should open myself to views and ideas I wouldn’t naturally gravitate towards.

OP posts:
TinselAngel · 07/06/2019 20:42

I purposely don’t add anything related to fertility, pregnancy, female diseases, breastfeeding as these things are not necessarily experienced by ALL women, if that makes sense

No it doesn't make sense. Women don't have to experience the above things in order to suffer discrimination.

Sex based discrimination against women comes about because they are of the class of human (ie females), that is expected to do such things.

You don't get discriminated against in employment for wearing a skirt and using the ladies. You get discriminated against because of the likelihood you will have children.

PinkyU · 07/06/2019 20:46

I’m not sure that’s exclusively true re discrimination in work, I think women are generally seen as less capable/intelligent and all types of bullshit. I don’t think that workplace discrimination stops with the menopause.

OP posts:
TinselAngel · 07/06/2019 20:47

I didn't say it was the only reason.

Michelleoftheresistance · 07/06/2019 20:48

The only way to 'live as a woman' is living while physically being one, isn't it?

Doyoumind · 07/06/2019 20:49

OP what do you consider to be the daily issues faced by females here and around the world because they are female? Now see how many of those apply to males living as women.

And discrimination, I would argue, would be for being trans and not for being 'women'.

PinkyU · 07/06/2019 20:49

I mean young prepubescent girls are discriminated against, based on they’re physicality and therefore ease of identification as female.

OP posts:
AbbyHammond · 07/06/2019 20:50

I am a woman, and I am living, so literally anything I do is "as a woman".

Michelleoftheresistance · 07/06/2019 20:50

Unless we reduce women down to nothing more than a performance of set actions and stereotypes. Are women just a performance anyone can put on? Or are they a biological group in their own right regardless of what they do, how they dress, how they perform?

MangoesAreMyFavourite · 07/06/2019 20:51

being seen as “safe” by other women this is a perception of others. It's not something you do. It cannot be included under a requirement for 'living as a woman'.

experiencing discrimination based on being obviously visually female. if you take away all the biology related things like pregnancy, breastfeeding etc. then what is driving this? It is biology that underpins it all and an understanding that you are of that class that gestates the young.

MacaroonMama · 07/06/2019 20:53

I think it is sort of the other way round OP - whatever you do in life, if you are a woman you are living as a woman - if you are a man, you are living as a man. Because humans can't change sex.

So there will be loads in common as we are all human, but ultimately living as a woman is not something you can opt in and out of. Sort-of the opposite way round to your question, if that makes sense.

PinkyU · 07/06/2019 20:53

I think the types of discrimination faved by women worldwide is also very determined by their ethnicity and financial status.

Some issues in terms of discrimination could potentially also be faced by certain transpeople.

OP posts:
Doyoumind · 07/06/2019 20:54

Go on. List them.

Doyoumind · 07/06/2019 20:56

It's not just about 'discrimination'. Rape and sexual assault, pregnancy choices, FGM are not about discrimination. They are issues women face.

TheInebriati · 07/06/2019 20:57

What benefit is there to making spaces mixed sex and stopping women from being able to challenge men who walk in?

We don't have women only spaces for the 'experience', do we? Women don't use women only spaces and services for validation, we have them for reasons of biology and need.
You've excluded biology because you don't think it counts, because some women are infertile.

Infertile women are still women, and they are still at risk and discriminated against in the ways fertile women are. On the grounds of our biology, not our gender presentation.

You haven't mentioned menstruation. Or miscarriage. Most women want privacy when dealing with it. If you don't know why and can't work it out, you should count yourself lucky.

PinkyU · 07/06/2019 20:57

But if we - women wish to be seen as a separate biological group, are we not them living as women? I’m that it is to the exclusion of others. And if so what defines that other than chromosomes, because we can’t necessarily identify visually people based on their chromosomes.

OP posts:
OldCrone · 07/06/2019 21:00

I’m a woman and therefore (imo) “live as a woman”, this involves be being addressed in female pronouns, accessing woman’s toilets/changing rooms etc unquestioned, being seen as “safe” by other women, experiencing discrimination based on being obviously visually female.

What you seem to be describing isn't 'living as a woman', it's 'being perceived by others as a woman'. None of those things you list are things that you do, they're things that are done to you.

What do you think 'living as a woman' means, and how does it differ from 'living as a man'? For me, 'living as a woman' is living as a human being who has a female body.

MacaroonMama · 07/06/2019 21:00

Yes, there are probably lots of discrimination Venn diagrams - the world is cruel and those in power will be unkind to those considered weaker or those that they want to keep in their place. Humans still can't change sex though.

PinkyU · 07/06/2019 21:00

So many typos - sorry

OP posts:
Doyoumind · 07/06/2019 21:01

Until recently absolutely everyone was managing just fine to say what a woman was.

TheInebriati · 07/06/2019 21:02

No, you are not making any sense. you can make these 'arguments' only by ignoring reality.
This is a fake version of 'equality', meaning everyone has to be treated identically for absolutely no benefit to women, who will carry on bleeding in public despite your best efforts to POMO them back into the house.

HamiltonCampbell · 07/06/2019 21:04

I could have short hair, not wear make up, use unisex loos exclusively, get called Hamilton, wear trousers and I'd still be living as a woman because.....I'm a woman. Genetically.

redexpat · 07/06/2019 21:04

We dont wish to be seen as a biological group. We are one. Yes we live as women and yes that excludes men. If a man wants to put on a dress and have long hair they should be free to do so. But that isnt what makes a woman.

RubberTreePlant · 07/06/2019 21:10

Well, you've conveniently chosen to disregard all the biological processes - and body parts -that are inherently female, so of course, after that, your reasoning makes no sense whatsoever.

ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASaving · 07/06/2019 21:15

I get where you're coming from, but the thing is, "living as a woman" isn't a discrete list, and even things from your list aren't universal.

being seen as “safe” by other women - I've met women before that I didn't feel safe around. Not as many as men, but certainly a few.

experiencing discrimination based on being obviously visually female - again, not all women experience this. Watch Hannah Gadsby's Nanette, she talks a lot about the discrimination she faces as a butch lesbian through not being obviously visually female enough.

And uniquely female things like menstruating and giving birth may not literally happen for every woman, but every woman is affected by them. If you don't start menstruating, or you stop menstruating, part of your "lived experience" will be to go for medical tests. You'll worry about what it means for your future fertility. Whether or not you carry a pregnancy, you're still affected by the possibility of it. You plan around contraception, ask yourself hypothetical questions about what you'd choose if you became pregnant, stress over your "closing window of fertility", worry about which time of life is best to have a child, field questions from family members on the subject, experience the pressure of advertising and media to have children. You still experience these things, even if it turns out you can't have children, or even if you choose not to have children. Our biology affects every step of our lives, even if that affect comes from the lack of our biology presenting or progressing in a "normal" way. Transwomen will never, can never, experience this. When a transgirl doesn't start menstruating at puberty, no one takes that child for tests, because no one ever expected them to menstruate. They'll never need to worry if their period is late, or ask themselves if they could go through with an abortion, or feel ashamed for bottle feeding because they should have tried to breastfeed. Every woman experiences and is affected by female biology, even if their experiences differ. No transwoman experiences female biology, ever.

Now, I do agree that if a transwoman passes well, and is not known publicly to be trans, then they will experience some similar treatment and discrimination. Street harassment is an obvious example of this, being judged on their appearance, and maybe having assumptions made about them based on the belief that they're female (i.e. thinking they're of "child bearing age" even though they can't bear children, dismissing them as it being "that time of the month" even though they don't menstruate). But that's not living as a woman, it's just living as if they were a woman. We don't live as if we're women, we just are women.

My basic point is that "living as a woman" isn't a set of experience that can or should be gathered. It's not like visiting a theme park called "the woman experience". Are you a woman? Yes. Are you alive? Yes. Congratulations, literally every single thing you do is "living as a woman". Being harassed, menstruating, not menstruating, being treated as safe, kicking puppies and mugging grannies, going to work, getting drunk etc etc. In the context of the legal requirement for transwomen to "live as a woman" a more accurate phrase would be "pretend to be a woman". That's cruel, so they wouldn't say that, but that's what it means. And although we've all seen pictures of pretty and well passing transwomen, most don't. Really, most never will. For all but the most convincingly medically changed, they will always be read and treated as either male or trans, not as female.

julensaor · 07/06/2019 21:18

what a load of horse shit. I should never ever need to say what defines me as a woman. It all gets very simple. If you are born with xy chromosomes, no amount of dressing it up or down in the genital area or hormone medication can change the xy in 30 trillion cells in the human body. And conversely nothing stops you from being male again ... FULLY... if you stop hormone treatment, regardless of genital area status. Stop asking people to define themselves when they have XX chromosomes, it is so insulting. 30 trillion cells lads, come on.

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