Genuine question re “living as a woman”

[PinkyU]

I’m a woman and therefore (imo) “live as a woman”, this involves be being addressed in female pronouns, accessing woman’s toilets/changing rooms etc unquestioned, being seen as “safe” by other women, experiencing discrimination based on being obviously visually female. (I purposely don’t add anything related to fertility, pregnancy, female diseases, breastfeeding as these things are not necessarily experienced by ALL women, if that makes sense.) if a transperson can experience these same things, are they then not also living as a woman (under my poorly defined criteria)?

If (as I’ve seen on posts in this board) living as a female is not a “thing”, I don’t understand the drive to segregate things and experiences as only for xx women, wouldn’t that then be living as a woman because only women can then experience these things?

I know this is a bit confused and garbled, it’s not a concept or idea I’ve considered before, but rather than processing it from a singular (fairly liberal) view, I feel I should open myself to views and ideas I wouldn’t naturally gravitate towards.

There is no uniform 'living as a woman'. My experience as a woman is different to each and every woman. I don't wear makeup a lot of the time, I usually wear trousers, I take medication to stop me from menstruating. I have been lucky enough not to feel like I have been discriminated against because of my gender or been victim to crimes against me because of my gender. Does that mean I am actually a man?!

I really struggle with the idea that a man can grow long hair, put on a face of slap and a skirt then call himself a woman. Because that is not what being a woman is about to me.

I can't describe or define what it is or articulate it in any way that would make any sense to anyone. But I am a woman and a trans man is not.

if a transperson can experience these same things, are they then not also living as a woman (under my poorly defined criteria)?

I think that women always subliminally fear male violence, and instinctively feel physically intimidated. I do get it that gay men and transvestites might also feel physically under threat from men, but I'd suggest far less so.

Women can become pregnant through rape. The fear; threat; reality of pregnancy, is not something to be dismissed. Physical & biological reality shapes emotional response and feelings about the self. It is not just about pronouns and clothing.

Things I have done as a woman (i.e. stuff I've done contingently because I could have chosen otherwise while being a woman because that's what I happen to be rather than being a man): football, PhD in STEM subject, dress making, rock climbing, baking, stroking cat (who happens to be sitting next to me) playing violin in a symphony orchestra (good), playing bass in a rock band (bad don't call us, we'll call you)...

Things I have done as a woman because only women can do them: had periods, given birth, breast fed.

Things I have had done to me because I am a woman and therefore (incorrectly and contingently) been deemed to be lesser compared to men (a distinction made via correct factual recognition of my biological sex even if the status ascribed to me in consequence is the result of erroneous reasoning): had to take an employer to court to get equal pay.

Does that help any, OP? Ian, as a matter of biological fact, a woman, therefore anything I do is done as a woman, regardless of what arbitrary label society attached to it.

I'm not on board with 'no discussion', I'm afraid. I'm not justifying myself, but I am quite happy to address misconceptions and language that obscures and mislead.

OP, the 'logic' in your post is giving me a headache. Males cannot 'live as women' as the only way to live as a woman is to be a woman. If a woman was simply any person who said they wanted she pronouns and went into the womens for a piss then woman is uterly meaningless and should be abandoned as a class of people tbh. Thogh we still need a word for those of us of the female sex.

The bit about being 'seen as safe by other women' does not apply to males tbh as a lot of women would not see a male as 'safe' like women even if he said his pronouns were she and walked into the ladies changing room. The 'being obviously female' part is odd. No male is obviously female so that doesn't apply either.

So the 'logic' leads me to, anyone who claims they want to be known as she and uses areas that are meant to be for female people, is a woman. Which is clearly bonkers. Sorry.

Mind, you say uses female areas unquestioned too. So that can probably be discarded for the vast majority of males. So that leaves us with, anyone who says they use she/her pronouns is a woman. Which is just TRA drivel really.

I have a rock. I name it grey. And it's just for you 😘

based on being obviously visually female

You see, I don't think that just resembling a stereotypical female 'presentation' is the same as 'being a woman'. Even women who do not conform - in terms of dress, outward appearance and behaviour - are still women, and will receive treatment based on their biological sex.

People instinctively register sex, even when presented with non-stereotypical presentation.

I think the types of discrimination faved by women worldwide is also very determined by their ethnicity and financial status

Discrimination operates along many lines & based on some of the factors that you mention. However, behind and beyond those is the position of women as a class: regardless of social background; colour; creed. Women are united a s a group; as a class of human beings.

I recall, back in the day, that many black women, for example, found it difficult to locate themselves in terms of their oppression: some opted for race; others opted for sex. Although I can obviously see that both apply, the status of woman - whatever colour - is the bottom of the pile.

But if we - women wish to be seen as a separate biological group, are we not them living as women?

Yes, female people who are alive are living as women, regardless of what they are doing, everything they do is as a woman as they are female. We don't 'wish to be seen as a seperate biological group' to men, we just ARE.

I do not understand you wanting to disregard biology when defining what a woman is to be honest. As when you take biology out of it, there is no such thing as a woman and its just 'people'. But even then, it would be useful to have a word for the class of people who are female, yes? So round and round it goes. People who are not female claiming the word that female people use for themselves, thus making the word useless, female people are called something else, but dresses, but toilets, and then women are again left unable to name themselves or speak about their own oppression as without the words to use, how can you speak of things like that? If you refuse to see sex, you cannot possibly see sexism, or do anything about it.

I’m that it is to the exclusion of others.

I can make no sense of this, however given the word exclusion is there I will take a guess and say that yes, the word woman excludes others. It excludes people who aren't women. Because, they aren't women. And women are a certain class of people, those who are female. Those who are not female, are male. Its not excluding people just to be mean or anything, its just kind of how words work. They have to mean something and honestly, I find it ridiculous that theres all this handwringing about what a woman is these days when for many many years, everyone has known what a woman is. Its only recently that people seem to try and make out its this complicated thing, when its really not.

women wish to be seen as a separate biological group

I don't think women wish to be seen as a separate group; they just are - on account of their biology; their body - and all that comes with that.

"the exclusion of others."

Yes, it excludes others. It excludes those who are not women. Why are people (OP) pretending this is so hard to make sense of?

I think people here are being exceedingly generous. If you were a white person trying to claim you were black because of some inner identification and feeling - you'd have been shown the door a long time ago. Nobody would tolerate it.

What makes you think that identifying as the opposite sex is any different?

Brings to mind Ian Duncan Smith He took part in a TV reality programme a number of years ago. He, along with a few other well known/celebrity people, were to spend a whole week living with a family living on the poverty line.

He couldn't hack it. And didn't even spend one night with the family. He, apparently, took a phone call from his wife saying she was very ill - and had to leave the production.

Then he went on to be the mastermind of austerity. Punishing those people who he could not bring himself to face living with for just one week.

I lost all respect for him then.

Well said, Justhadathought. This is just the usual example of women trying to be nice to a disingenuous poster.

I'm not sure why people are giving the OP grief, these are all reasonable questions regarding how to think clearly about language and concepts. People do talk about the idea of "living as a woman" so I imagine a lot of people wonder what that actually means, or have the impression its important somehow.

Anyway, to the OP - the idea "woman" isn't about what people do, it really is a biological category, like dog or rosebush or hydra. It is all about drawing lines, all words and scientific categories are about drawing lines. And sometimes we redraw them, too, maybe we realise what we thought was two species are actually one species, or we realise some characteristic we were thinking was important, isn't.

Woman and man, what are they then? The lines we are describing there are reproductive role. We reproduce sexually and there are two roles, this is defined by our dna. And pretty much everyone belongs to one or the other, even if things don't work properly or look quite right.

is there some cause to revisit the lines drawn there? Well, let's say we did, we decided to use the words men and women differently. Would we then have no reason to talk about, or have word to describe, those sex roles? I would say yes. Farmers will still want to talk about whether they are buying a cow or a bull, and we will still want to talk about sex roles, be it to discuss our reproductive organs or maternity leaves or who we would like to go out on a date with. As long as we need the words, I can't see a reason to change them for some other arbitrary set of sounds.

It doesn't really matter how men or women live, if men become second class citizens serving dinner in uncomfortable shoes while women conventionally sit around scratching their crotches - they will both still be living as women and men.

these are all reasonable questions

No they're not.

As I said above, the only reason this ludicrous phrase, living as a woman, is even bandied about is because it was the gatekeeping employed by male doctors assisting sufficiently insistent male patients to get medical and surgical interventions.

It's a sexist concept originated by patriarchal medicine.

Nobody lives as a woman - whether they're actual women or men who want to be women. People just live. Some of them are men and some of them are women.

I find this idea that biology can be ignored because not all women menstruate, conceive etc completely misses the point. As a previous poster said, every woman's life is influenced by menstruation, every woman has to consider her fertility and biological clock in a way men do not. Women who do not want or cannot have children are perceived differently from childless men so their decision making will not be the same. Menstruation, pregnancy, birth, menopause are universal female experiences and affect all of us even those who are infertile or cannot menstruate. Men seem to be incapable of understanding this.

@Justhadathought very good points

What does 'living as a gorilla' mean? If I go and live in sub-saharan Africa among gorillas and do as they do, does that then make me one? No, because I'm not a bloody gorilla. Insert any other species... if I eat ants, does that make me an anteater? Nope.

You can't 'live as a woman' if you're not actually a woman (XX and all that follows). What people usually mean when they trot this out is gender stereotypes but women have quite a lot of different personalities so you'll always find many, many actual, biological women who won't perform stereotypes.

You can't just disregard biology. Life doesn't work like that.

No they're not.

That you think they are stupid questions does not mean that they aren't sincere. I spend a lot of time with young people, to most of them, these phrases are the ones that they have been hearing for their whole lives that they can remember. What seems natural and obvious to you sounds alien and new, and they don't understand the way the discussion is put together.

Telling people their questions are simply invalid and not worth a response will do nothing to help them see a different perspective. All it leaves them with is what they already have.

If you're a girl in Afghanistan pretending to be a boy, and the outside world regards you as a boy, by your argument you are no longer a girl.
You just Are. Or Aren't. Biologically.

How to live as a woman - be female and be alive.*

Males can present as if they were women, by using stereotypical markers of femininity (hair, clothes, names) and by changing their bodies to more closely resemble female bodies (hormone and surgery) but they are still living as men who are trans aka transwomen.

*I actually think it's a bit more complicated b/c there are CAIS persons who I'd consider to be women, although not female. In that case, it's because the person is phenotypically female from birth, socialised as female from birth, doesn't go through a male puberty, and isn't virilized as a result. But these things don't apply to XY transwomen.

My son with GD understand all the above - he knows he is male, he understands he cannot change sex. He just currently (with a huge helping of social pressure from peers, media and the general floating homophobia) feels really anxious about his male body and has conceived the idea that he would feel less anxious about it if he had a body that didn't shout 'male'. I have zero diffculty talking to him about the realities of transition, and not the YouTube 'you go girl' b/s, so whomever said 'its hard for the kids these days to understand material reality' - nope. Adults around the kids just have to stay grounded in the face of obvious cognitive errors of thinking.

What does 'living as a gorilla' mean? If I go and live in sub-saharan Africa among gorillas and do as they do, does that then make me one? No, because I'm not a bloody gorilla.

Thats maybe the simplest explanation of how much this 'living as a woman' idea is bullshit that I have ever seen. Impossible to misunderstand, or so you would think. No doubt TRAs would read that and say you were saying that trans people are sub human (makes a change from 'dont exist) and maybe even yell racist at you even though that would be..stupid.

Telling people their questions are simply invalid and not worth a response will do nothing to help them see a different perspective. All it leaves them with is what they already have

This is true, and kind of why I answered the thread, and tend to even if I think the poster might be disingenuous, just incase they are not and are actually just questioning for the first tme. Mind I do sometimes think, how on earth do people tie themselves in so many knots yet not realise how much they are tying themselves in knots. I mean, the way the OP is worded..this group of people are referred to as she, they use areas that are meant to be for female people,they experience discrimination..but do not mention biology despite biology being pretty much the only thing that makes women women rather than men. It just baffles me that its not obvious to people as they type it out.

BUT, I was at that stage once too. Not at the stage of writing out long posts going on about stereotypes and how those are more important in 'womanhood' than being female and that, no. But, I was one of those who uncritically thought 'TWAW' and even (embarassing) yelled bigot at anyone who disagreed with me. I had a bit of a wobble when Kellie Maloney was on CBB mind, and was quite disgusted in myself that I could not bring myself to say 'she' as 'she' squared up to women in a very male way and such but I got over that quickly enough and just put it down as a bit of a blip in my otherwise wonderful progressive self. It was a massive shck when it all kind of hit me at once, the misogyny of it all, the homophobia, seeing how 'transactivists' actually behave, seeing how libfem types sounded once this had hit me, realising thats how I sounded to others just moments before, realising I had (this is the worst part for me I think) called someone close to me bigoted and distanced myself from her after she admitted to me that a transwoman had tried it on with her and she said no as she was gay, leading to finding out about the disgusting cotton ceiling and how many women with penises exist these days, then finding out that the majority of 'trans' people do not even want SRS, that I had signed a petition to get a male person moved to a female prison because I had been under the impression they had had SRS when infact they had had a boob job and had a penis that they seemed proud of, many many things finally culminating in me concluding this was just MRAs being 'clever', and seemingly some dodgy people with an interest in keeping children prepubescent longer and a vested interest in kids as young as 4 being able to 'consent', homophobes advocating for what is little more than conversion therapy and being lauded for it, predators, and just general misogynysts all banding together in some kind of 'perfect storm' that had blinded seemingly the whole world by yelling bigot and transphobe at anyone who disagreed.

So I get it. The need to be kind. The cognitive dissonance. Sometimes sense fighting its way to the front of your mind only for you to push it back, because you scold yourself for thinking it or someone scolds you for saying it. But it keeps coming and coming until it finally breaks through.

However all that said, it still looks so weird to me, seeing this in action. Seeing people write out large paragraphs trying to explain that a woman is actually just a feeling and that women are feminine, but not all women but thats because reasons, but its about how you feel inside your head, all identities are valid but not that one as that ones just bigoted terfs taking the piss, and for gods sake do not mention biology, you fucking transphobe! Not all women menstruate, so this means that men are absolutely women. Etc etc.

TLDR; I was once similar. Even though I was once similar and remember it, I still find it odd that people can write questions like in the OP and not question themselves about why are they trying to define what a woman is using any little thing they can think of except biology.

Of course when discussing whether its best to answer questions like in the OP even when you are a bit suspicious.. an honourable mention goes to the people who join simply to make us repeat ourselves for the hundredth time, or trying to post 'gotchas' about intersex people, and even the ones who think we know not transpeople so come onto do a AMA, refuse to answer any questions with anything substancial then finally yell that they absolutely are women as they haven't had their chromosomes testes and we are just terfs and angry hairy old lesbians jealous of fresh faced young transbians then leave never to be seen again, and of course, the brand new members who join and post transphobic bile and happen to be screenshotted by the monitors the second its posted, when the posts are deleted within minutes because HQ delete transphobia very quickly despite being a hotbed of transphobia themselves. Not to forget those who try to teach us uneducated sily wimmin some advanced biology, and coming up against posters such as BowlofBabelFish (I hope shes still here?) and running away with their tail between their legs.

This post is probably just a load of waffle. I was just kind of writing as it came into my head so might not make much sense in places really, as my train of thought is often a bit garbled. But its long and it felt pointless to delete it.

I do agree with you that its unhelpful for us to take a 'no debate' stance. But I do see why some women say that, because basically, its just groundhog day (and 9 times out of 10, 'curious' posters turn out to just be TRAs trying to catch us out on something but never suceeding and then flouncing) and it is very true that this shit wold not be entertained at all if it was about anything else. We all know how well Dolezal went down. And I really do not see how claiming to have a womanly essence when male, is different to claiming to have a black inner essence when white.

'its hard for the kids these days to understand material reality' - nope.

That's not what I was getting at. Plenty of younger people, even in their 20s, haven't had those adults. They've just adopted the thinking they see and hear around them. Or just the words without much understanding. "Living as a woman" is something they may have heard used as a serious standard for what makes a woman.

If they are asking about things that seem silly or clearly irrational to older people it doesn't help them to just say they can't be sincere or no one could be so crazy as to think that way.