Genuine question re “living as a woman”

[PinkyU]

I’m a woman and therefore (imo) “live as a woman”, this involves be being addressed in female pronouns, accessing woman’s toilets/changing rooms etc unquestioned, being seen as “safe” by other women, experiencing discrimination based on being obviously visually female. (I purposely don’t add anything related to fertility, pregnancy, female diseases, breastfeeding as these things are not necessarily experienced by ALL women, if that makes sense.) if a transperson can experience these same things, are they then not also living as a woman (under my poorly defined criteria)?

If (as I’ve seen on posts in this board) living as a female is not a “thing”, I don’t understand the drive to segregate things and experiences as only for xx women, wouldn’t that then be living as a woman because only women can then experience these things?

I know this is a bit confused and garbled, it’s not a concept or idea I’ve considered before, but rather than processing it from a singular (fairly liberal) view, I feel I should open myself to views and ideas I wouldn’t naturally gravitate towards.

I think the types of discrimination faved by women worldwide is also very determined by their ethnicity and financial status.

Some issues in terms of discrimination could potentially also be faced by certain transpeople.

Please explain what you mean by this, OP. What issues?

Women being a biological group 'excludes others'?

You mean it excludes men. Yes it does. That isn't naughty of women you know.

I'm living as a woman because I've got xx chromosomes and that means my reproductive organs are designed to release an egg, carry a child to term and subsequently feed that child.

Things like toilets and changing rooms are segregated because unfortunately most sexual predators are men (xy chromosomes and designed to provide the sperm for the egg) The segregation provides an element of protection.

I actually don't mind unisex facilities when they are properly thought out taking the above risk into account.

Many women don’t have any access at all to women’s toilets or changing facilities.

It is a major reason girls globally stop attending schools. Access to safe sanitation facilities for women is a global women’s rights experience.

So access to those facilities is certainly not a universal experience in terms of ‘living as a woman.’

Sorry, a global women’s rights issue.

I’ve been thinking about this a lot of late. I am heterosexual and a mother. I have subsequently had a hysterectomy so I no longer have the reproductive capability.

Right now, I am sat on the sofa, watching the motorbike racing (i’m a huge and dedicated fan and attend the TT every 2-3 years), i’m drinking beer while wearing jeans and a shirt. I don’t like dresses as much as jeans and I wear make up for work and going out but that’s it. I have a high performing career. And i’ve just sorted out the bins.

I am a woman, I live as a woman. There is no doubt in my mind. But I seem to have “man” characteristics. And that is the bullshit. I am 48 years old and have spent my whole life being told and believing that I can be and do anything I want and that being a woman shouldn’t be relevant. The trans rhetoric is so backward looking, it’s about old fashioned perspective of performing a masculine version of femininity that many (most?) women don’t recognise anymore.

"Living as a woman" is a concept originating some decades ago with gatekeeping for medical and surgical interventions for those with sex dysphoria.

It is a sexist concept invented by male doctors to assist male patients. It has no relevance to the lives lived by actual women: it is a euphemism for using women's spaces before medical intervention.

Again: it has no relevance to the lives lived by actual women

HTH

Many women don’t have any access at all to women’s toilets or changing facilities.

It is a major reason girls globally stop attending schools.

It may interest you to know OP that this is now a growing reason in the UK that girls are taking time off school and/or refusing to drink during the day as well.

Right now, I am sat on the sofa, watching the motorbike racing (...), i’m drinking beer while wearing jeans and a shirt.

I'm in bed trapped under a sleeping baby, but that sounds like heaven.

Where are the transmen winning in sports, not a hope in hell - stick a trans male in against any male in boxing and the match is a complete and utter joke. Why? 30 trillion+ XX cells that no artificial hormone can change.

Nope...this is heaven

I'm in bed trapped under a sleeping baby

Ive just attempted to put ds2 (16) in a headlock so I could get a kiss

Being female involves discrimination from the moment you are conceived.

Should a trans identifying male be able to pass as a woman, they still would not be 'living as a woman' because they would not have experienced the constraints women are subjected to from birth.

ByGrab. 👍. Gutted for Hicky. I took DS to his first BSB race when he was 7!

But seriously, I like bikes and cars and am fairly uninterested in traditionally girly things. And I run my career and household without male assistance. That is living as a woman.

I haven't read the responses yet, I wanted to add my own thoughts.

I'm not sure that "living as a woman" is a very meaningful phrase, and that might be why you are running into trouble. It's been used in the sense of a person passing as a woman in social life, and in that sense I think it means all the things you have said. It doesn't really say anything more than that though. It doesn't mean the individual has the feelings or thoughts of a woman, and it doesn't mean the person is a woman.

It's when people try to imply there is something more to it that it gets into trouble.

*...accessing woman’s toilets/changing rooms etc unquestioned, being seen as “safe” by other women, experiencing discrimination based on being obviously visually female... if a transperson can experience these same things, are they then not also living as a woman?
Firstly by transpeople in this case I assume you mean transwomen?
Your only talking about the tranwoman who passes. It's very rare for transwomen to experience life being obviously and visually female. Very rare indeed.
Any transwomen who does go through life with the experience of being "obviously and unquestionably female" will have had to go through an extraordinary amount of painful permanent surgical intervention, be taking hormones daily, would have had their voice box operated on, all sorts of things, and this is not your basic "living as a woman" experience. Far from it.

Living as a woman does not involve going to extraordinarily extreme lengths to portray yourself as female. That's living as a transwomen. It's very much living as a transwomen. It's very different.

Most transwomen don't experience life as a woman. They experience life and are treated by the world around them as a transwoman, having people stumbling over their correct pronoun, ppl getting their name wrong sometimes, getting side-eyed in the women's areas, etc all these experiences are a far cry from living as a woman.

It's impossible for a transwoman to live as a woman.

^meant to bold the first para

Every one of the nearly 4 billion females on the planet currently alive is 'living as a female'. The children 'live as girls', the adults 'live as women'

So tell me.
Other than being alive, and female, and adult, what are the necessary characteristics of 'living as a woman'?

There might be no meaningful similarities between me and a woman on the other side of the world in how we live our lives. But we both live as women.
There might be few similarities between Joan of Arc and me, but she lived as a woman, and so do I.

There will be experiences that are ubiquitous, whilst almost but not entirely universal. And they will relate to our shared female biology. Menstruation. Pregnancy. Menopause.

But if you called me 'he' from birth to death I'd still be living as a woman.
If I used unisex toilets from this day on, I'd still be living as a woman.

I'm alive and I belong to the sex class female. That's all there is to it.

Experiencing discrimination based on being obviously visually female - I'd argue this is what most trans women don't experience. They certainly haven't grown up with it, and most adult trans women don't truly pass - they are largely perceived to be trans by the discriminating class, not biological women.

If you doubt this, just look at how the voices and needs of trans women are prioritised above those of biological women or, indeed, trans men. It's not because they are perceived as women, it's because they are not!

That's not to say trans women don't experience discrimination, of course they do, but it's not sex-based. Nor have they been socialized as women with all the consequences that result from that.

Plus, being discriminated against as visually female is not just because of appearances, it's because of the perception of membership of the reproductive/care-giving/sex-providing class).

I am a woman - I have XX chromosomes and a vagina. I am living. That is “living as a woman”.

The reason women talk about the specific oppressions we face connected to biology when we address the concept of 'living as a woman' is because they preclude men from ever being able to do so. It's not because there actually is some kind of ephemeral 'living as a woman' experience. I'm not always addressed as a woman - quite a few times I've had people call me 'sir'. I'm not 'living as a man' when they do that.

As a concept it's as nonsensical as a cat 'living as a dog' because we call it a good boy and take it for walks on a lead.

'Woman' is biological, it means adult human female. If you are socially perceived as female you will likely be treated in a certain way. Transwomen try to create the illusion they are female so they will also be treated in this way. They can never truly emulate biology which is why TRAs argue that being a woman is all about the social construct.

experiencing discrimination based on being obviously visually female

I require time to reflect on your post before commenting further; but could you clarify what sorts of discrimination you have experienced on account of being perceived as female; and how did you respond; deal with feel about that?

‘Being obviously visually female’ - but those who aren’t actually female are only superficially visually female , the ‘ ? ? ‘ kicks in really quickly, no matter how flicky the hair or how thick the makeup.

and on and on it goes, look at everyone here, validating themselves as women whether they are feminine of not. ~~Stop discussing it, refuse the toilets, just say NO, no discussion, no need to self-validate, the word is NO.

I don't "live as a woman" I don't think. There is no woman way to live, women live in all sorts of ways depending on their interests, tastes, environment, resources. I live as my self, and I happen to have female biology so that self belongs to the category "woman". Woman isn't something you act or dress up as. I can't live differently and stop being a woman any more than I can change that I'm white or that I'm human.