The Rumplestiltskin Law

[Barracker]

There is a consultation happening regarding surrogacy.

Here is a link to the Law Commission on the subject.

It's key aim is horrifying.
To sever all rights of a woman over the child she has created with her body, the moment she gives birth to it. Presumably, to sever her rights before she gives birth, in fact. To contractually grant someone else ownership of her body and the child within it.

"Creating a new surrogacy pathway that will allow, in many cases, the intended parents to be the legal parents of the child from the moment of birth."

I'm calling it what it is. The Rumplestiltskin Clause.

I'm taking your child, and there's nothing you can do about it. A deal is a deal. Your body is mine. Your human rights were forfeit when you signed the contract.

It's the stuff of nightmarish fairytales.
Rumplestiltskin was not the good guy.

#TheRumplestiltskinLaw

drspouse
Adoption is bloody hard. But if you're socialised male, your partner is socialised male, you have a lot to learn about replacing a mother.
It's not politically correct to suggest men are at a disadvantage when raising a child, but I think they are. Different friend groups and support networks, more likely to live further away from their own parents (because they're less likely to look after their own parents), more likely to work longer and more unsocial hours, the stereotype of being unwilling to ask for help or show weakness or incompetence or exhaustion or fear - multiplied all be two because it's two men in a relationship - multiplied by x because the child they've adopted might have specific needs, multiplied by a further x as the child's birth family might be hard work...

So yeah I'd say it was homophobic to say gay men shouldn't adopt but let's not pretend it isn't going to be bloody hard work they might not be prepared for. Likewise for commissioned babies.

The fact I didn't know they'd done studies on children of sperm donors (and how those children as adults found it upsetting and difficult to come to terms with) until this week just shows how well the fertility industry buries bad news. But I'm sure we will hear more and more from children conceived in new ways about how it has affected them.

@drspouse I am specifically talking about the social phenomenon of women delaying childbirth to establish a career then getting caught out later

@FlyingOink Thank you for saying that. I wanted to say that maybe being a mother is something women are better at. The thing about gay adoption is it suggests there is no need for a mother, or that mothering can be done by a man, or that mothering is the same as fathering, and I'm just not sure that's true.

Flyingoink I would agree.

Flying great post. Yes, it's the socialisation. In my opinion, men are not inherently less able to act in a traditional 'mothering' role but they are socialised differently.

Specifically, they are socialised to put their needs first, even before their children. You only have to look on Relationships to see the 'Disney Dad' phenomenon for Dads who think they deserve a medal for taking their kids out once every couple of weeks on their own.

While the mother provides clean laundry, sheets, clean house, organises diaries, play dates, doctors appointments, plans, buys, prepares and cooks the meals (and cleans up afterwards) etc etc.

There are men who aren't like this - I know one at my daughter's school. He genuinely knows who his children's friends are, organises playdates, does everything the average mother does. People think he's amazing. I don't know a single other Dad who organises play dates, and it's not because they're working more. I know one Dad who works from home permanently, and his wife is in a professional WOH role with lots of travel and she still organises the play dates. It's ridiculous.

I think the default ideal setting for any baby is to be with their mother. While two gay men could be good fathers to a child this can only be the case if they acknowledge and celebrate the mother of that child. I don’t think you can be a good father if you refuse to accept that your child has a mother and worse still if you denigrate their mother as just a vessel for growing your possession.

This proposed law wants to completely erase the mother of the baby, wants to erase the concept of motherhood and doesn’t care or acknowledge the well known fact that the most important person in a baby’s life is it’s mother. It wants to sever the connection that every single one of us has been evolved to need.
It wants to place the desires of adults above that of the needs of a baby.

@JoanOfQuarks yes. And who would ever have thought that women would be defined out of law as a class, and yet here we are. No such thing as women. That's why I see trans rights as do detrimental to women's rights.

Why not get those people ( things?) formerly known as women to churn out babies for single men who feel really really really sad. Why not? If mothering and mothers aren't important it's the logical step.
She mothered the child
He fathered the child
2 very different things with 2 very different meanings. That's why trans activists want to destroy language

Some radical feminists argue there are deep inherent biological differences in males and females and that it's not socialization. Or that perhaps female behavior ( submissiveness) is the result of fear and socialization but that perhaps male behavior is innate. These are the biological essentialists.
Nobody likes biological essentialists because there is the subtle inference that women are born to be oppressed. I don't think we are.

I'm not a biological essentialist, I'd like to think I am a biological realist. And yes, there are things, like breastfeeding, like pregnancy, that only a woman can do, specifically only a mother can do. So men are not capable of being entirely the same as a mother. However, once you get past the early years (which it should be noted a lot of psychologists believe are the most important for child development) I do think the difference between men as a class at parenting and women as a class is largely socialisation.

Those early years ARE really important though - all the evidence supports this (how those men who want to destroy women's rights wish this weren't so!) and the biology of mothers is so important during this time. It is possible to conceive of a world where the unique biological role of the mother is valued, cherished, supported. Sadly, given this misogynistic pile of crap consultation, this is not the world we are living in.

@Ineedacupofteadesperately Yes, it's not a matter of pressing urgency to discuss whether or not the male tendency to rape and be violent is innate or socialized but what we absolutely must not do is fall for the rhetoric that men and women are basically the same and as long as we take on the same tasks that this will make us equal.
Because although liberal feminists meant well by arguing that we are basically the same, it now means that women are losing their grip over motherhood and mothering. Will mothers be obsolete? Patriarchy is built around controlling female reproduction, we know this, but I never thought they'd take it to the extremes they have where members of the oppressor class can literally pay a woman to make a baby for them. That's why I have major problems with gay men becoming fathers through surrogacy. If a mother isn't necessary please tell me what is stopping single men buying babies from surrogates. And please don't tell me that would never happen.

I mean I have major problems with surrogacy anyway , but two men buying a baby off a woman just because - as men- they have well paid jobs . And as a woman, she probably can't afford even basics on her shitty wage.

Or maybe a group of men could chip in an buy themselves a baby. Can't see any problems with that

If a mother isn't necessary please tell me what is stopping single men buying babies from surrogates.

Cristiano Ronaldo already has.

He never confessed to his first child being surrogate born, although that’s clearly what happened. Then another surrogate gave him twins and his girlfriend gave birth to his fourth child about four months later.

So we have women as a class , or caste, oppressed economically but who have this singular ability to create life. And the oppressor caste, or class, which has a propensity for violence and deviancy when it comes to women and children, using their economic clout to procure babies.

I believe one of the areas where feminism has failed women to date is that it has not celebrated the uniqueness of women, their ability to bear and physically nurture a child. Now I too was one of those feminists in my youth who wanted women to be seen as the same as men and to get the boys job etc etc. But in doing so we lost a protection for the essential part of motherhood.

You can see it even now, there are women on a board here castigating a woman who feels that she was discriminated against by not being notified of a promotion opportunity while on maternity leave - the women are saying well you chose to take a year out to have a baby how on earth could you believe you could get a promotion? - you see, women have been socialised to not protect motherhood.

It is not just rich men who use surrogates.

@Annasgirl I agree with you. It's hard for women because we are denigrated by men for being nurturing (shut up and go make me a sandwich, is an online joke) and for having babies. And of course the last thing we want to do is make womanhood all about having babies. We want women to be acknowledged and praised for their scientific and sport achievements, and for women to be seen as complete, whole people, whether they have children or not.
But moving forward in feminism it's time to put the equality rhetoric to rest. We can't be, and don't want to be, equal to men on men's terms. We want liberation for women and that means a world where women aren't selling their wombs and vaginas 😢

This is such a great thread.

I've been busy and no time to properly contribute but I'd hate to read and run without complimenting the many wonderful women speaking for women and children.

twice agree but it's funny, isn't it how people seem to be able to celebrate other achievements without implying that doing so is somehow devaluing the whole class of people who could potentially have those achievements, but when it comes to motherhood if we celebrate it, somehow that's wrong because it takes away from childless women? (many of whom may have chosen to be childless)

Not all university graduates are doctors. We celebrate doctors as being important parts of society, respected roles. That doesn't mean all the other university graduates who could have become doctors but didn't are now somehow lesser.

Just because some women don't have children, it doesn't mean that motherhood (pregnancy, childbirth, breastfeeding etc) shouldn't be celebrated.

The thing is, if motherhood is celebrated then that's a problem for the patriarchy. And for misogynistic males.

@Ineedacupofteadesperately - yes that was my point. We have devalued motherhood out of the assumption that motherhood tied us to the kitchen sink and was the cause of our lack of rights - but we should reclaim motherhood because by denigrating it we have allowed this idea that surrogacy is ok to become mainstream.

This, porn, Self ID; rape; and abortion rights are to my mind the most important areas where we need feminist activists and yes, it is a log way from the workplace but misogyny is so rife in every moment of every day all over the internet in particular that we need to regroup and replan.

I would not have believed as a 20 year old that I would still be fighting these fights and new ones, to fight for women, as I near 50!!!!!

Just bumping and place marking.

Bumping this important thread. This public consultation closes in September.

I have just found that there are some consultation events. I can get to the one in Cardiff next week. I'm going.

Thanks Fanny I've emailed about a consultation** event in London as I see that's missing off the list.

A relevant thread...

Carriers v Spurters www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3638362-carriers-v-spurters

Really l9ng consultation but I'm working my way through it.